Current SEAD/DEAD mission description of AB

[exsonic01]

In current version of AB, strike airplanes in this game miraculously detect enemy ground AA units and attempt the precise strike on AA units. This is wrong.

In reality, RWR and any ECM cannot designate exact location of enemy AA units. RWR can only tell pilot that radar is tracking his plane. But it never tells whether the missile is launched or not. Old SARH missiles require specific pattern of continuous wave so pilots were able to detect missiles were fired. But still, it never tells pilot the exact coordinates of AA unit.

During beta, I remember Veitikka or Nikolas brought RWR screenshot of Mig21, saying it can track exact location of enemy AA units. But that is wrong. It only tells very rough direction. It never tells the exact location of enemy AA radar, neither it helps to lock on enemy AA unit for pilot. Only radar with anti-radiation module or pod for ARM mission would be possible to locate the place of enemy radiation source.

From the high above, for fast movers, pilots cannot detect and recognize ground units and vehicles, especially when they are hiding in the forest or any form of cover.

During vietnam war, early-era of wild weasel missions were performed by hunter-killer tactics, without any credible anti-radiation technology. Bait plane approaches low, really fast, forcing enemy AA or SAM to open fire and expose their position. Then hunter plane strikes the exposed AA and SAM position. Sometimes little birds were also used to expose enemy AA position.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles ... ter-pilots
https://www.amazon.com/Hunter-Killers-E ... B00NLMC92Q

Anyway, what I wish to tell is, current description of SEAD/DEAD airplanes in AB is way too accurate, and it seems they find the AA / SAM location too easily. Such accuracy of tracking AA/SAM position is only possible with any plane with ARM radar module or ARM ECM pod. Usual RWR cannot perform such task, neither helps pilots to lock on enemy AA/SAM targets.

[Lowlaner2012]

IIRC almost all aircraft in my games have only changed course and attacked SAM/AAA units after they have opened fire at said planes and have given away there positions, I have never seen one go after a SAM/AAA that has not fired at that particular plane...

[thewood1]

Let's keep in mind that air is still heavily abstracted in its operation. Getting hung up on it will head us down a path where things that are really important to the game get delayed or set aside. In relation to a game focused on ground combat with CAS a limited supporting arm, I think it works fairly well.

Let's not go down the CMO/Command path of trying to make individual aircraft representation so detailed that it actually starts to take away from core game development.

[nikolas93TS]

No, we haven't said RWR indicated the exact locations. Photographs I posted were showing different systems, some of which could only show general sector and direction, but some more advanced RWR could also show approximate distance and radar type.

Radar was one of the last things that was implemented in beta (because people wanted non-LoS anti-aircraft systems) but no better suggestion came on how to improve SAM balance without implementing a whole new level of gameplay in form of dedicated SEAD aircraft. So it ended up abstracted.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012
IIRC almost all aircraft in my games have only changed course and attacked SAM/AAA units after they have opened fire at said planes and have given away there positions, I have never seen one go after a SAM/AAA that has not fired at that particular plane...

If pilots are being shot at, the first thing they do is evasive maneuver and exit the zone asap. Then they will decide if they will come back to strike or just go away.

They will require one or two passes, or they need to watch other plane's pass and roughly figure out AAA or SAM site. But remind that this is cold war era. If there is no ARM capability, everything they have is their eyes or normal visible-spectrum electro-optical vision. If there are no ground troop to guide LGB, they cannot lock on the target. They have to aim the ground target based on their memory and eye. Which will be very imperfect.

[Lowlaner2012]

Hi....

In my experience roughly 4 times out of 5 the planes do evade and try to make it off the map, only about 1 in 5 actually locate and attack the SAM\AAA unit....

That's just my experience, yours might be different or course 😎

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Let's keep in mind that air is still heavily abstracted in its operation. Getting hung up on it will head us down a path where things that are really important to the game get delayed or set aside. In relation to a game focused on ground combat with CAS a limited supporting arm, I think it works fairly well.
Let's not go down the CMO/Command path of trying to make individual aircraft representation so detailed that it actually starts to take away from core game development.

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS
No, we haven't said RWR indicated the exact locations. Photographs I posted were showing different systems, some of which could only show general sector and direction, but some more advanced RWR could also show approximate distance and radar type.
Radar was one of the last things that was implemented in beta (because people wanted non-LoS anti-aircraft systems) but no better suggestion came on how to improve SAM balance without implementing a whole new level of gameplay in form of dedicated SEAD aircraft. So it ended up abstracted.

Well, if those are abstractions, then OK. But still, IMO current SEAD/DEAD strikes are too accurate. Let's introduce ARM weapons dedicated for DEAD/SEAD missions, and let them have such huge accuracy. Then, how about slightly reduce SEAD/DEAD strike accuracy with non-guided bomb or rockets?

Other option is ECM and EW but this is not modeled in here so...

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012
Hi....
In my experience roughly 4 times out of 5 the planes do evade and try to make it off the map, only about 1 in 5 actually locate and attack the SAM\AAA unit....
That's just my experience, yours might be different or course 😎

This depends on how many AAA/SAMs are fielded, isn't it? Evading planes are modeled in AB just like you wrote. I'm not talking about evading itself and I'm OK with that.

But what I'm saying is, too accurate SEAD/DEAD strike without anti-radiation or laser-guided bombs with guidance from ground during the first pass... It seems not realistic.

Well, if that is the result of abstraction then OK. But I still think it might needs to reduce accuracy of SEAD/DEAD with non-guided weapons, and introduce AR strike planes with dedicated ARM weapons.