Matrix Games Forums

Hi All,
So decided to play a game using CV mode Art:1, Sup: 1, Better CM Math. Prior games were Default. As the Russian player this is just killing me. I can’t figure how to attack or what more is needed to win a fight. In some cases my attack CV is double his defense and he is not retreating, default mode would have been a retreat. Also, during the attack summary and I see the total CVs against each other, before if mine was just 1 point above his it would force a retreat, now I can almost be double and will lose. Before determining if you were going to win was a bit of mystery but I thought I had a good grasp of it, now I am totally in the dark and getting super frustrated. Can anyone shed any light on this? TIA

Were you using the +1 attack bonus in the other game and not in this?

That would exactly describe the changes you are observing here.

Thanks!!

You right on the money!!

So what is the best way of setting things up for two evenly matched players?

The common choice for evenly matched opponents is either

+1 Attack AND reduced blizzard

OR

Normal attack AND full blizzard

Although common choices do not necessarily mean right choices!

+1 Sup is usually seen as slightly pro-German, +1 Art as slightly pro-Soviet

Better CV math is only cosmetic, but requires learning to judge whether your attacks will succeed from scratch. These are simply different numbers that lie less to you, but if you have previously memorized that (for example) 1:1 CV on counter ratio would let you win most of the time, now it will not.

Other options are actually really affecting strength in various ways, as Telemecus said.

CV doesn't say it all. It took me a few bloody noses to understand that an infantry regiment rarely wins against a division, even if the respective CVs say 6:1 ratio.

Thanks all. Love the detail and complexity of the game and hate it at times.

To add to this, what does better CV math do?

ORIGINAL: Toolbox1941

To add to this, what does better CV math do?

Most important thing to note is that Better CV does not change any of the odds or capabilities of your unit.

In normal CV you see an estimate of the combat value on your counters. But there are some factors that are not taken into account in that or until there is a battle resolution. Better CV includes more of those factors in the CV displayed on your units.

Ok. Here is my frustration. I have 3 Russian Rifle divisions, toe about 70 for each, with full moral. Attacking a single Hungarian division. My CV 17, his 3, fortification is .04. I do a deliberate attack and lose. The total CV value is 810 to 470, so defending forces held. How can I plan anything if I can’t win simple battles like this?

So many more things than raw CV come into play. Battle die rolls depending on the leader's ratings, number of men or elements involved, levels of ammo, units morale, experience and fatigue.

Did you or your opponent have many SU's involved in the battle? Did you use air power in ground support and what were the effects in disruptions?

Russian guns shoot pop corn (except when I play Axis).

Seriously has anyone got a rule of thumb of how much cv is required to force a retreat? Like 90% of the time?

Hard to say if you take only CV into account. But as much if not more than raw CV, the key is creating a lot of disruption as early in the battle as possible. So ideally, have enough LW ground support with enough escort to limit the number of turnarounds before they can bomb, include long range artillery SU's and then some SU's adapted to fight against the type of unit you are fighting against, so anti-soft against infantry, anti-armor and 37mm AA or 88 against armor, some AA to disrupt some of the ground support the soviets may have. 105 and 150 howitzers have HEAT, which is good against light tanks, but field guns have longer range. And a score of other little details. Bicycle Recon, assault gun troops directly attached to divisions give good CV and help raise recon levels, SP AA also gives more CV, good leaders also help a lot. In my experience, with good preparation deliberate attacks at 1:1 initial odds will often force a retreat, even against fort level 2.

The number of elements (squads) involved also as a huge impact since the side who has more elements available will usually shoot more often and so have more chance to destroy, damage or disrupt an enemy squad before final CV calculations. Ammo levels also have an important impact on how many elements will shoot in the battle.

If you have LW air miles to spare, you can make 1 or 2 preparatory ground attacks to create fatigue, which also helps. But that is not always a luxury you can afford and if you have to choose, there is more return for the buck in using a fresh LW to do ground support since the disruption it creates will directly affect the outcome of the battle.

For hasty attacks, the same stands for preparation, but under 2:1 odds it will often fail.

ORIGINAL: joelmar

So many more things than raw CV come into play. Battle die rolls depending on the leader's ratings, number of men or elements involved, levels of ammo, units morale, experience and fatigue.

Did you or your opponent have many SU's involved in the battle? Did you use air power in ground support and what were the effects in disruptions?

So ideally, have enough LW ground support with enough escort to limit the number of turnarounds before they can bomb

If he did use ground support it could have contributed to a failed attack.

HardLuckYetAgain:

If he did use ground support it could have contributed to a failed attack.

What do you mean?

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: joelmar

So many more things than raw CV come into play. Battle die rolls depending on the leader's ratings, number of men or elements involved, levels of ammo, units morale, experience and fatigue.

Did you or your opponent have many SU's involved in the battle? Did you use air power in ground support and what were the effects in disruptions?

So ideally, have enough LW ground support with enough escort to limit the number of turnarounds before they can bomb

If he did use ground support it could have contributed to a failed attack.

I know this will throw many people for a loop.

ORIGINAL: joelmar In my experience, with good preparation deliberate attacks at 1:1 initial odds will often force a retreat, even against fort level 2.

Fort level is immensely deceptive. ~70 engineer/artillery points will deconstruct a level 2 fort immediately, 90 for a level 2.10. An astute Axis player will recognize these static contributions and see a "modified" CV value.

German divisions will have 10-20 (when not on refit [:)] ), and pioneers add another ~11 or so (when committed as an attached SU but NOT as an HQ-committed HQ, at least until the refit-reserve bug is fixed).

Yes I agree