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In several AARs I've seen a multitude of "fleets" for the Allies, much more than I can see in my AI games. Is anyone building capital ships in the early game so they have this many fleets later? As I cannot tell how many ships are in each "fleet", are these fleets of 1 or 2 ships each, so the Home Fleet is broken into several squadrons really (and only "fleets" in game terms)?

I build patrol groups.

And not knowing what naval groups are together is part of the fog of war.

Like sometimes I leave 7 groups at Scapa Flow. Sometimes 2. German player doesn't know. But I always leave something there.
Player has to figure out what is there.

Good information. Thank you Alvaro. Deception was a big part of the Allied abilities!

another factor might be AI vs Human

i'm in my first pbem. i'm axis.

i'm seeing A LOT more enemy fleets than i do vs AI.

I think you might be right boldairade... it seems it to me too.

ORIGINAL: boldairade
another factor might be AI vs Human
i'm in my first pbem. i'm axis.
i'm seeing A LOT more enemy fleets than i do vs AI.

Maybe Al should enhance the AI with his tactics to build variable numbers of patrol groups to keep players guessing. Maybe easier said than done, but probably doable.

That's a good idea pzgndr. I'm not a modder but that would be an interesting mod.

BTW... I have jacked the AI up to a 10% bonus on each so I can replicate the Germans cutting through my French like butter, just like in my pbem games! [8|]

I have never built a ship of any sort,excluding escorts, and have never regretted it even in my current game vs sveint. They are not worth the money and, by the time they are built, any need for them will have passed.

I have never played the allies vs the AI, and in my only AI game vs the allies, the allied navies didn't hinder me whilst I took out Russia and declared myself the winner.

Have to agree with sillyflower here, fleets are MUCH to expensive to ever build in this game...(a Naval Bomber would be a better return)

Same here, lower the price of fleets a bit and you will see more naval battles.

I just wonder did anyone build the Tirpitz BB group?
For the price, I prefer two mechanized corps.

Between the oil use and cost, I find that building any additional naval units is a waste. As the Allies you have plenty, and as the Axis, they don't help against Russia. I have thought about scrapping them, but, I just can't bring myself to do it. I figure it's reserve production if I ever need it.

For game balance that meaning the ability to perform a Sea Lion if the Allies let it happen I think the Developer insured this. Plus to stop the Allies from ignoring the naval aspect of the game altogether. The Axis had a fixation on big battleships that dates back and is more a pride thing. I think sinking of a BB should cost National Morale or Manpower. I didn't think you got anything back from scraping the fleet?

The Axis never should of built a Surface Fleet. They should of scraped them all and built U-boats and Torpedo Boats if they wanted to fight out on the high seas. Even little ships would suffice as raiders... They could never contend with the Allied Navies.

I imagine between Bismark/Tirptiz you could of built a good deal of Panzers. 20 Tons for Panzer III 41,700 tons for the Bismark plus the specialized construction, trained crew and oil to run it. I don't think you would get 2 Mechanized Corp but I think you would of had a few tanks and planes that in key points in the War would of been important.

I don't know how many Brit Resources were tied up by the Fear aspect of the Capitol Ships!?

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Same here, lower the price of fleets a bit and you will see more naval battles.

I just wonder did anyone build the Tirpitz BB group?
For the price, I prefer two mechanized corps.

Each naval unit is 2 capital ships + escort ships.

The costs are based on research from steel production and other games of the genre to make sure it is balanced.

The issue is you can't split the cost over time. Currently there is no way to easily do this in the code. But it will be in WarPlan 2.

I built the Graf Zeppelin once. Fun but not very useful.

ORIGINAL: Cigar King

I have thought about scrapping them, but, I just can't bring myself to do it.

You can't scrap ships, sadly. There was a long thread about this a while ago, started by me.

Scrapping ships only benefits the Axis early, the Soviets, and the Allies late game.

True up to a point, but if axis start scrapping, so can the RN. It would be very silly to see the world's navies scrapping themselves as soon as war was declared. Maybe a 'not before' rule and/or relatively low return for scrapping, if you want to allow it. That said, it would not be on the top of my wish-list.

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa
The costs are based on research from steel production and other games of the genre to make sure it is balanced.
The issue is you can't split the cost over time. Currently there is no way to easily do this in the code. But it will be in WarPlan 2.

I think this is the way to go, something similar to WiF production with first and second production cycles for naval units. At-start forces can include both built units and some in production. Players get to decide which units to complete, at reduced cost rather than full cost for new units from scratch. For current game, maybe consider more scheduled naval unit arrivals on historical dates at reduced strength.

Also, Al's argument on the U-boats thread about the economics of building versus not building is something players need to carefully consider. If you're not building something then your opponent doesn't have to counter-build, and all that production naturally goes somewhere else. Is that good or bad? It depends, and players need to recognize if their choice is a risk or a gamble. Sometimes, by the time you find out, it's too late.

Just for a little historical perspective... when the Bismark went out to the Atlantic it was still before the Japanese had shown that carriers were the more important vessel (although Billy Mitchell put the world on notice in the 1920's... the world's navies, other than Japan, were slow to accept it). So when the British saw the "unsinkable" Bismarck head for the convoy routes, it sent the RN in force to stop the threat... when the Hood was blown up and the Bismarck steamed away, the morale of the British sailors and public took a huge hit, outsized for our game terms. If not for a lucky torpedo hit that stuck the Bismarks rudder as it hightailed it for the refuge of France, and it's ultimate sinking, the British RN would have been much more circumspect. While this cheered the Brit's morale, and hit the Kriegsmarine morale, it really wasn't until the UBoat Captains started going out and not coming back in horrendous numbers that the naval arm of Germany became demoralized along with the population. How any of this could affect the game is not clear as I realize this isn't a historical simulation as has been pointed out many times.