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Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:15 pm
by 76mm
Playing around with scenario design still, and seem to have found another flag that, as far as I can tell, doesn't do anything: the slow motorized equipment flag.
Early war Soviet artillery tractors were VERY slow. So I assigned the "Slow Motorized Equipment" flag to these tractors in the eqp file. But when I created an artillery battery in the editor and assigned these tractors, the unit's movement rate (13) is the same as if I'd assigned normal-speed motorized equipment (a truck, a later war tractor).
Haven't tested this in-game yet, only viewed the unit movement rate in the editor. I suppose I could further manipulate the speed by reducing the amount of transport, but I would not expect to have to do that, since I would expect that unit with the "slow motorized movement" flag would be, you know, slower than normal motorized equipment.
Anybody else encounter this?
It is getting frustrating and discouraging that some of the flags don't do what they are supposed to do (the other one being the "static" flag). And these are ones that are easy to spot...I wonder how many of the other, combat-related flags that would be more difficult to spot don't work?
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:00 am
by Curtis Lemay
I created a test scenario with a suite of units at each ground movement type. Scale was 2.5km/hex and full day turns.
Unit with trucks (Fast Motor) = 33 MPs
Unit with Tigers (Motor) = 28 MPs
Unit with Sabre Cavalry (Fast Horse) = 20 MPs
Unit with Elefant (Slow Motor) = 18 MPs
Unit with Horse Team (Horse) = 17 MPs
Unit with Rifle Squad (Slow) = 14 MPs.
Furthermore, the unit with equipment requiring txp that lacks txp (Very Slow) = 1 MP, is functioning as designed.
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:45 pm
by 76mm
I've run a few more tests, the results are rather different from yours, especially when you combine multiple types on equipment in one unit. Scale is same as yours, but the exact MP are not the point, the relative MP between equipment types is what is important.
Elefant (slow motorized movement): 18
Halftracks (motorized movement): 33
Trucks (fast motorized movement): 33
So no difference between motorized and fast motorized.
When you combine transport vehicles with other equipment, everything is out the window:
4 122mm guns + 4 halftracks: 33
4 122mm guns + 4 trucks: 33
4 Elefants + 4 trucks: 33
So whatever equipment is with the transport, and whatever the speed of the transport, it doesn't matter. Unfortunately the default equipment file does not seem to have any slow transport vehicles, so I cannot demonstrate (with the default equipment file) that if you pair slow transports with any other sort of equipment, the slow transports automatically speed up to fast (standard?) motorization (hard to tell, since the speed of motorized and fast motorized is the same from what I've seen in this test).
So you can make Elefants as fast as trucks by putting a few trucks into the unit, or make slow motorized transports as fast as trucks by giving them something to tow. So why even bother with having different motorized speeds for equipment if everything is immediately so jumbled once you add them together?
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:50 pm
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Furthermore, the unit with equipment requiring txp that lacks txp (Very Slow) = 1 MP, is functioning as designed.
It might be "functioning as designed" but you are the only one aware of that, because it is not what the manual says in Section 8.4.1.1:
Static Equipment: The equipment cannot move without transport.
The language is very clear and there is no ambiguity: static equipment needs transport to move. Period.
Instead, the game implements "The equipment cannot move more than one hex without transport."
How are players supposed to know whether something is functioning as designed when the manual
says something completely different?
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:10 pm
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: 76mm
I've run a few more tests, the results are rather different from yours, especially when you combine multiple types on equipment in one unit. Scale is same as yours, but the exact MP are not the point, the relative MP between equipment types is what is important.
Elefant (slow motorized movement): 18
Halftracks (motorized movement): 33
Trucks (fast motorized movement): 33
So no difference between motorized and fast motorized.
When you combine transport vehicles with other equipment, everything is out the window:
4 122mm guns + 4 halftracks: 33
4 122mm guns + 4 trucks: 33
4 Elefants + 4 trucks: 33
So whatever equipment is with the transport, and whatever the speed of the transport, it doesn't matter. Unfortunately the default equipment file does not seem to have any slow transport vehicles, so I cannot demonstrate (with the default equipment file) that if you pair slow transports with any other sort of equipment, the slow transports automatically speed up to fast (standard?) motorization (hard to tell, since the speed of motorized and fast motorized is the same from what I've seen in this test).
So you can make Elefants as fast as trucks by putting a few trucks into the unit, or make slow motorized transports as fast as trucks by giving them something to tow. So why even bother with having different motorized speeds for equipment if everything is immediately so jumbled once you add them together?
The "Transport" flag seems to force Fast Motor rate. If you turn it off for halftracks, they revert to Motor rate.
The game only has so much flexibility on what rate results from combinations of different equipment. Designers have to take that into consideration when designing units.
What Norm intended is shown by his use of the term "Very Slow" movement. Clearly, that allows some movement.
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:27 pm
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
What Norm intended is shown by his use of the term "Very Slow" movement. Clearly, that allows some movement.
I don't know where "Very Slow" movement is used--everywhere I look (the manual and the editor), it says that the equipment needs transport to move:
No hint anywhere that it can move without transport. Since it can, the game should be fixed to make that clear. Or better yet, provide a way to implement equipment that actually needs transport to move at all.
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:09 pm
by Lobster
ORIGINAL: 76mm
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
What Norm intended is shown by his use of the term "Very Slow" movement. Clearly, that allows some movement.
I don't know where "Very Slow" movement is used--everywhere I look (the manual and the editor), it says that the equipment needs transport to move:
No hint anywhere that it can move without transport. Since it can, the game should be fixed to make that clear. Or better yet, provide a way to implement equipment that actually needs transport to move at all.
Bob can't be bothered with fixing anything. He's working on the commanders list. [:D]
And if you had been working on it too then this would never have come up so it's your fault for not helping him. [;)]
Ok I'm done being a sterile cross between a donkey and a horse. [>:]
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:02 pm
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: 76mm
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
What Norm intended is shown by his use of the term "Very Slow" movement. Clearly, that allows some movement.
I don't know where "Very Slow" movement is used--everywhere I look (the manual and the editor), it says that the equipment needs transport to move:
No hint anywhere that it can move without transport. Since it can, the game should be fixed to make that clear. Or better yet, provide a way to implement equipment that actually needs transport to move at all.
I don't recall where he uses it (perhaps in the code itself), but he does. He didn't write the manual. And the above shot doesn't necessarily mean that it requires txp to move AT ALL. It could mean that it requires txp or it will move at the Slow Motor rate.
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:38 pm
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I don't recall where he uses it (perhaps in the code itself), but he does. He didn't write the manual. And the above shot doesn't necessarily mean that it requires txp to move AT ALL. It could mean that it requires txp or it will move at the Slow Motor rate.
I don't care who wrote the manual or the code...the bottom line is that they should not be contradictory, or ambiguous (as is your suggested interpretation). Maybe this is why so many fewer people are designing scenarios these days?
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:00 pm
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: 76mm
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I don't recall where he uses it (perhaps in the code itself), but he does. He didn't write the manual. And the above shot doesn't necessarily mean that it requires txp to move AT ALL. It could mean that it requires txp or it will move at the Slow Motor rate.
I don't care who wrote the manual or the code...the bottom line is that they should not be contradictory, or ambiguous (as is your suggested interpretation). Maybe this is why so many fewer people are designing scenarios these days?
It's been that way since 1998. Plenty of scenarios designed since.
Is the manual perfect? Of course not. What manual ever is?
Are you suggesting that field guns can't be moved by man-handling them? They have wheels and crews. Crews tend to be proportionate to the gun's size.
There are guns that really can't be moved. And TOAW has a FIXED movement mode for that purpose.
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:46 pm
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
It's been that way since 1998. Plenty of scenarios designed since.
Is the manual perfect? Of course not. What manual ever is?
You sound proud that the manual has been in this state for more than 20 years. I would think that sometime in that period it might have been knocked into shape. As a comparison, the Panzer Campaigns series, of a similar vintage, has a much better-written manual and has just released an updated/revised manual to reflect clarifications and recent changes. TOAW is a complicated game which needs and deserves a thorough, well-written, up-to-date manual.
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Are you suggesting that field guns can't be moved by man-handling them? They have wheels and crews. Crews tend to be proportionate to the gun's size.
That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I'm not talking about 45mm AT guns...the guns I'm working with weigh 8 tons, with a crew of 9. I'm working with 2.5 km hexes, which is generous, but wheels or not I can't see them pushing 8 tons of gun cross-country for 10 km within 24 hours. Larger hex scales and heavier guns make it even less plausible.
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:55 pm
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: 76mm
You sound proud that the manual has been in this state for more than 20 years. I would think that sometime in that period it might have been knocked into shape. As a comparison, the Panzer Campaigns series, of a similar vintage, has a much better-written manual and has just released an updated/revised manual to reflect clarifications and recent changes. TOAW is a complicated game which needs and deserves a thorough, well-written, up-to-date manual.
So re-write it. There's already a project on that ongoing.
That's exactly what I'm suggesting. I'm not talking about 45mm AT guns...the guns I'm working with weigh 8 tons, with a crew of 9. I'm working with 2.5 km hexes, which is generous, but wheels or not I can't see them pushing 8 tons of gun cross-country for 10 km within 24 hours. Larger hex scales and heavier guns make it even less plausible.
You're only counting the crew operating the gun, omitting the guys running ammo to it. 105mm has about 44 per gun; 150mm about 55 per gun. And that assumes all guns in the unit move at the same time: the crews don't gang up on one gun at a time. (Handbook on German Military Forces, figure 106, page 144).
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:17 am
by Lobster
So according to you a German artillery regiment can drag 36 guns, ammo, sighting equipment, communications equipment, all the other paraphernalia related to the regiment, lay the guns, set up coms in half a day without the need for any transport of any kind. Not even one horse. Don't forget you are not just moving the guns. You are moving the regiment. Everything. Every tent, every stove, every sock, every bean. Everything. In half a day. And at the end of that move ,without any transport, you're ready to go. If your troops can still stand up.
What about the larger guns?
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:38 am
by Lobster
Move six of these by hand.
You can move the heaviest artillery in the game one hex, no transport. Explain that.
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:26 am
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
So re-write it. There's already a project on that ongoing.
Oh boy, is that what you call encouragement? To re-write the manual, you need to know how things work. In the last month, just playing around with the editor, I've come up with three undocumented issues:
--"static" equipment being able to move;
--"transport" equipment automatically and unavoidably being upgraded to "fast motorized" speed; and
--naval guns must have a minimum range of 5 km or they don't work at all.
The effect of many other game parameters are not very clear. If you are willing to spend the time to clarify issues, I might be willing to rewrite the manual, or at least the portions dealing with the editor. Otherwise it will be a futile exercise.
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
You're only counting the crew operating the gun, omitting the guys running ammo to it. 105mm has about 44 per gun; 150mm about 55 per gun. And that assumes all guns in the unit move at the same time: the crews don't gang up on one gun at a time.
And you're only counting moving the gun. As Lobster points out, what about the ammo and other gear that an artillery unit would need to function? You seriously think that all of that can be moved for kilometers without any transport? Really?
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:31 am
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: Lobster
You can move the heaviest artillery in the game one hex, no transport. Explain that.
C'mon man, easy-peasy, they figured this stuff out 5,000 years ago:
Surely you've seen all the photos of heavy artillery batteries being man-handled over hill-and-dale, right? Right?
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:08 am
by Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Lobster
So according to you a German artillery regiment can drag 36 guns, ammo, sighting equipment, communications equipment, all the other paraphernalia related to the regiment, lay the guns, set up coms in half a day without the need for any transport of any kind. Not even one horse. Don't forget you are not just moving the guns. You are moving the regiment. Everything. Every tent, every stove, every sock, every bean. Everything. In half a day. And at the end of that move ,without any transport, you're ready to go. If your troops can still stand up.
What about the larger guns?
No. The txp for the guns is the only thing missing. Logistical txp must still be in place. Otherwise, the guns wouldn't even be able to fire. (no ammo).
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:50 pm
by Lobster
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: Lobster
So according to you a German artillery regiment can drag 36 guns, ammo, sighting equipment, communications equipment, all the other paraphernalia related to the regiment, lay the guns, set up coms in half a day without the need for any transport of any kind. Not even one horse. Don't forget you are not just moving the guns. You are moving the regiment. Everything. Every tent, every stove, every sock, every bean. Everything. In half a day. And at the end of that move ,without any transport, you're ready to go. If your troops can still stand up.
What about the larger guns?
No. The txp for the guns is the only thing missing. Logistical txp must still be in place. Otherwise, the guns wouldn't even be able to fire. (no ammo).
So let me get this straight. Instead of using the transport to move the guns they use it to move the tents? Right. Unless you missed it there is zero transport in the unit and in any artillery unit the guns come first.
What amazes me is the lengths you go to so you can be right about so many different subjects. No one ever runs out of fuel because they siphon it from other vehicles. No one ever runs out of ammo because they don't shoot their weapons. No one ever runs out of food because they eat their shoes. The list goes on and on. Trouble is, units did run out of fuel and ammo in the real world. But not in yours.
Oh, and the one that really gets me is how a unit can lose vehicles 200 km behind enemy lines because they and somehow that same vehicle ends up in the replacement pool good as new.
Tom is right. There are guns that should not move at all without transport assigned to the unit. Period. Anything else is just foolishness or a pathetic attempt to be correct. Or both.
In any event this has run it's course for me. Any replies to the contrary of the statement directly above would have to come straight from Bizarro World.
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:02 pm
by golden delicious
ORIGINAL: 76mm
I don't know where "Very Slow" movement is used--everywhere I look (the manual and the editor), it says that the equipment needs transport to move:
It says "requires transport". Not "requires transport to move"
Sort of like how fries require ketchup. Well technically you
could eat them without but...
RE: Another flag that doesn't work?
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:04 pm
by golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Lobster
Move six of these by hand.
You can move the heaviest artillery in the game one hex, no transport. Explain that.
If you don't want the bloody gun to move you can make it "Fixed". Then the unit will drop the gun if you try to move it.
Or you could get over it- people have been playing TOAW for 22 years and this is the first time anyone has complained about this.