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Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:46 am
by LGKMAS
Getting to the stage where I do have a few PP spare.
I have been looking at the minor players, like the Kiwis and the Canucks. Scenario 6 Start date 8 Dec , playing Allies, (duh!) against the AI.
What is the general consensus? Is it worthwhile buying out 4 Bdes of Canucks with a couple of AA regts and a couple of bns to form a Canuck group, although they won't be able to form a Division? Nothing seems to be happening in the NOPAC area so needing them to reclaim the Aleutians looks unnecessary. Nothing has happened there and it is Oct 42.
They could be useful as rear area garrison units. I would be reluctant to use them as assault units as I think my reading of their replacement rate shows them as rather scarce. Probably all the good guys are being sent to Europe.
Are they worth the PP?
I note the Kiwis are rather expensive to buy out so I have only bought some AA units and Engr units, always very handy to have a few up your sleeve.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:51 am
by Andy Mac
Why scen 6 I dont think thats had an update in 10 years at least no AI updates in that long
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:45 pm
by mind_messing
Not familiar with the scenario in question, but the thing to be aware of with the smaller Commonwealth nations is the poor number of replacement infantry squads they get. Normally it's a trickle. A few serious combat losses will see you with TOEs with plenty of arty and equipment but little in the way of frontline infantry.
Best practice in game is much as it was historically - keep a few units on the frontline and disband the rear area units to replenish the TOE's as needed. That's also worthwhile to supercharge a few of the upgrade cycles that boost British/Indian/Commonwealth infantry firepower.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:50 pm
by BBfanboy
You need to consider replacement rates and pools. One Canadian Bde can probably be used in combat and get replacements, but not all four (one comes later). They are also a bit slower getting anti-hard weapons and AA improvements. Use the Canadians initially to guard coastal bases like Vancouver, Victoria and Prince Rupert. You get some permanently restricted Militia units in 1942 that can handle guarding against para attacks at bases close to the coast.
IIRC, some of the Canadian leaders are pretty good, so when you deploy them they will fight fairly well. But at start, the game sets their experience and morale way too low - IRL Canadians were a cocky lot with a lot of initiative. They got in a lot of trouble in England for their pranks.
The NZ Bdes are much like the Aussie ones - pretty good but with a bit less anti-hard punch. NZ also has a few large AA units that can be very useful wherever they go, but don't risk them in places where the Japanese might destroy them in a surrounded hex or island. Initially you need to protect Auckland and Christchurch anyway until the Allies have naval superiority in SoPac/SWPac.
NZ replacements are pretty shallow - the Aussie units have better replacement rates IIRC.
On PP, I recommend you consider replacing leaders in critical places or important ships. Allied CAs and CLs carry a lot of the battle in the early months and you have a better chance of keeping them and hurting the enemy if you give them good leaders. Same with subs with working torps - Dutch, British and US S-boats.
Prioritize forward fighter units over bombers and patrol when changing leaders.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:11 am
by LGKMAS
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Why scen 6 I dont think thats had an update in 10 years at least no AI updates in that long
Is that a problem? Unlike others here, I do not have 10 years experience playing the game. I have only started to play this game in December last year after 10 years of UV. Want to fully understand the changes and get to grips with the different aspects of this game. And are there changes? Bloody oath, there are and for the better. But they all take time to work through and see what they actually can do. And I had to restart in March as I realised I had got so much fundamentally wrong that the game was going nowhere. Talk about a learning curve!
Dec 8 start point with a full campaign means I start with the brutal facts of life that the Allies faced after Pearl Harbor. Playing the full campaign means I get to see the many new toys that did not appear in UV and what they can and cannot do. As well as the various Japanese items I never had to worry about in UV.
Playing against the AI as my personal life would not allow me to commit to a PBEM.
If the designers got it right, then why would I need AI upgrades?
Are all the other scenarios that people talk about, such as the Babes (?) against the AI? If so, after fighting through to the end with Scen 6, I might give them a go. But if they are not AI but require a PBEM, then, sorry, not for me.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:28 am
by Andy Mac
Sorry I was unclear I wrote the original AI scripts and did scenario updates for Scen 1 and 2 fixing bugs in both the AI and DB's
All I meant is Scen 6 is pretty much the at release version of the scenario - it should work ok but I have not processed changes or updates to it for 10 years whereas Scen 1 and 2 got a new AI update less than 6 months ago !!!
Will it work yes its probably fine but it wont have all the corrections put through
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:28 am
by RangerJoe
Go ahead, learn and play, then try the later AI updates so you may be surprised.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:49 pm
by pontiouspilot
Nobody in their right mind would send Canadians to the Pacific!! You would never get them off the beach. I'm sure that's why the Brits never sent any to North Africa...they would have liked it.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:07 pm
by RangerJoe
But even inland, with all of that sand, it would still be like a beach. It would be a little dry, however.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:12 pm
by GetAssista
ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot
Nobody in their right mind would send Canadians to the Pacific!! You would never get them off the beach. I'm sure that's why the Brits never sent any to North Africa...they would have liked it.
They somehow got Canadians off the Italian and French bit... err beaches in the 40s though
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:12 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot
Nobody in their right mind would send Canadians to the Pacific!! You would never get them off the beach. I'm sure that's why the Brits never sent any to North Africa...they would have liked it.
They somehow got Canadians off the Italian and French bit... err beaches in the 40s though
Because we are approaching Remembrance Day on Nov. 11, the Italian channel TLN on cable had a few docs about the Canadians in Sicily and then in Italy. In the doc about the Monte Cassino campaign they talked about something I never heard before. Apparently the French army had a large contingent of Zouave soldiers from Morocco who were Foreign Legion irregulars with little discipline. These soldiers took it as their right to rape the Italian women in the area and did so to somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 of them. These refugees from the city of Cassino and other towns in the area fled across the river that ran between the Canadian and Moroccan camps. The Zouaves began to cross the river to continue their assaults on the women, believing the Canadians would not fire on them. In a few incidents the Canadians shot over 25 Zouaves and they stopped trying to cross the river, but continued to assault Italian women in other areas.
The Canadians were in the area after chasing the German 1st Paratroop division out of Ortona on the Adriatic coast in a bloody battle known as "Little Stalingrad" for its ferocity of hand-to-hand fighting. The German Paratroops were an important part of the Monte Cassino defences, and the Canadians and Poles beat them again.
The Italian historians who made the doc emphasized how impressed they were that the Canadians were not only very effective soldiers but showed a humanity to civilians that was not always present when other nations conquered an area. Part of the reason for making the docs (a Canadian-Italian man collaborated with Italian historians on it) was that the Canadians almost never played up their successes in the press or radio during the war, so many people in Canada and other countries were unaware of their accomplishments and sacrifices.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:57 pm
by RangerJoe
If I remember correctly, Canada had the world's third largest Navy at the end of the war - at least in the number of ships. Besides, they had "Scotty" as a crazy aviator!
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:20 pm
by anarchyintheuk
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot
Nobody in their right mind would send Canadians to the Pacific!! You would never get them off the beach. I'm sure that's why the Brits never sent any to North Africa...they would have liked it.
They somehow got Canadians off the Italian and French bit... err beaches in the 40s though
Because we are approaching Remembrance Day on Nov. 11, the Italian channel TLN on cable had a few docs about the Canadians in Sicily and then in Italy. In the doc about the Monte Cassino campaign they talked about something I never heard before. Apparently the French army had a large contingent of Zouave soldiers from Morocco who were Foreign Legion irregulars with little discipline. These soldiers took it as their right to rape the Italian women in the area and did so to somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 of them. These refugees from the city of Cassino and other towns in the area fled across the river that ran between the Canadian and Moroccan camps. The Zouaves began to cross the river to continue their assaults on the women, believing the Canadians would not fire on them. In a few incidents the Canadians shot over 25 Zouaves and they stopped trying to cross the river, but continued to assault Italian women in other areas.
The Canadians were in the area after chasing the German 1st Paratroop division out of Ortona on the Adriatic coast in a bloody battle known as "Little Stalingrad" for its ferocity of hand-to-hand fighting. The German Paratroops were an important part of the Monte Cassino defences, and the Canadians and Poles beat them again.
The Italian historians who made the doc emphasized how impressed they were that the Canadians were not only very effective soldiers but showed a humanity to civilians that was not always present when other nations conquered an area. Part of the reason for making the docs (a Canadian-Italian man collaborated with Italian historians on it) was that the Canadians almost never played up their successes in the press or radio during the war, so many people in Canada and other countries were unaware of their accomplishments and sacrifices.
As good as the FEC was on the battlefield, parts of it were as bad off the battlefield. There were only 1 or 2 FFL demi-brigades with the FEC. The vast majority were colonial troops from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. The Moroccan goumiers had the worst reputation of the force. See Marocchinate for greater detail.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:54 pm
by DesertWolf101
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot
Nobody in their right mind would send Canadians to the Pacific!! You would never get them off the beach. I'm sure that's why the Brits never sent any to North Africa...they would have liked it.
They somehow got Canadians off the Italian and French bit... err beaches in the 40s though
Because we are approaching Remembrance Day on Nov. 11, the Italian channel TLN on cable had a few docs about the Canadians in Sicily and then in Italy. In the doc about the Monte Cassino campaign they talked about something I never heard before. Apparently the French army had a large contingent of Zouave soldiers from Morocco who were Foreign Legion irregulars with little discipline. These soldiers took it as their right to rape the Italian women in the area and did so to somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 of them. These refugees from the city of Cassino and other towns in the area fled across the river that ran between the Canadian and Moroccan camps. The Zouaves began to cross the river to continue their assaults on the women, believing the Canadians would not fire on them. In a few incidents the Canadians shot over 25 Zouaves and they stopped trying to cross the river, but continued to assault Italian women in other areas.
The Canadians were in the area after chasing the German 1st Paratroop division out of Ortona on the Adriatic coast in a bloody battle known as "Little Stalingrad" for its ferocity of hand-to-hand fighting. The German Paratroops were an important part of the Monte Cassino defences, and the Canadians and Poles beat them again.
The Italian historians who made the doc emphasized how impressed they were that the Canadians were not only very effective soldiers but showed a humanity to civilians that was not always present when other nations conquered an area. Part of the reason for making the docs (a Canadian-Italian man collaborated with Italian historians on it) was that the Canadians almost never played up their successes in the press or radio during the war, so many people in Canada and other countries were unaware of their accomplishments and sacrifices.
Do you happen to recall the name of the documentary? I’d like to check it out.
The river in question is the Liri river which was the dividing line between the French Expeditionary Corps and the British XIII Corps (and later the 1st Canadian Corps).
The history of the FEC in the Italian Campaign is a very interesting one. On the one hand, the FEC and especially the Goumiers of the 2nd Moroccan Division played the critical role in the defeat of the Germans at Monte Cassino. On the other hand however, the outfit was indeed the main culprit behind the mass rape tragedy that is known as the ‘Marrochinate’ in Italy.
For their actions in Operation Diadem itself, the Moroccans rapidly took their initial objectives and climbed over the Aurunci Mountains that were left only lightly defended by the Germans as they judged them to be impassable. This critical advance effectively pierced the Gustav line and flanked the Germans facing the 8th Army, forcing Kesserling to order the retreat back to the Hitler Line.
Here is a quote from General Clark (Commander U.S. 5th Army) on the advance:
“In spite of the stiffening enemy resistance, the 2nd Moroccan Division penetrated the Gustave [sic] Line in less than two-day's fighting. The next 48 hours on the French front were decisive. The knife-wielding Goumiers swarmed over the hills, particularly at night and General Juin's entire force showed an aggressiveness hour after hour that the Germans could not withstand. Cerasola, San Giorgio, Mt. D'Oro, Ausonia and Esperia were seized in one of the most brilliant and daring advances of the war in Italy... For this performance, which was to be a key to the success of the entire drive on Rome, I shall always be a grateful admirer of General Juin and his magnificent FEC.”
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:11 am
by BBfanboy
There is info available about the docs on The Latin Network - link below. Be aware that the docs talk mostly about the experience of the Italian people during these campaigns, spending little time on the actual military actions which are covered well already.
Interesting what you say about the Moroccans and scaling mountains the Germans considered unclimbable. There is a version of that in the Canadian assault on Mount Assoro in north-central Sicily. The German position gave them command of all the lines of approach they considered that a military force could use. But they neglected the near vertical back face of the mountain, much as they did at Cassino. The Canadians spent a night moving to the back of the mountain in total silence. Hid and rested during the next day, and the following night climbed the back of the mountain. These were not trained mountain troops with specialized climbing gear. A man would leave his pack and climb up a few feet to where he had a foothold, then the man below would pass up the first man's pack and weapon, and his own pack and weapon. He would then climb somewhere higher on the slope and repeat the process. This was done in the dark, in near total silence, with cumbersome combat boots and no gloves. The Canadians just made the crest at dawn, and attacked immediately - surprising the Germans before they could turn their machine guns and artillery around. Taking the mountain unhinged the entire German line in North Sicily.
Here is that link:
https://www.tln.ca/tln-media-group-anno ... lian-week/
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:40 am
by LGKMAS
I haven't checked all the bases in SOPAC and SWPAC ( but most of them) to see if there are any garrison requirements but I suspect not. That means the only need to have high AV units in the rear areas is if the likelihood of a Japanese end run is high. And the Kiwis are closer. And the replacement rate for Canadians is not that flash!
Since I have not seen any evidence of this after 300 turns, I am willing to make a Group 9 decision. The PP cost of buying out Canadian units to send to SOPAC/SWPAC to act as rear area garrisons is too high to be worthwhile. I will make do with what I can scratch together to man the rear areas of SOPAC/SWPAC. And if the Japanese do eventually try to attack the Aleutians , at least the Canadians are still close by and can be bought out in an emergency.
Their Air units are a different matter and I have tried to buy them out and send to SEAC. Their presence, even though they are withdrawn in mid to late 43, means I have strength there when it is needed to attrite the IJAAF. I currently have 3 Kittyhawk Sdns and a Bolingbroke Sdn so that does boost the Burma front considerably.
Now watch what happens when the scripts show me I have made the wrong decision! As if that hasn't happened before!
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:20 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: LGKMAS
I haven't checked all the bases in SOPAC and SWPAC ( but most of them) to see if there are any garrison requirements but I suspect not. That means the only need to have high AV units in the rear areas is if the likelihood of a Japanese end run is high. And the Kiwis are closer. And the replacement rate for Canadians is not that flash!
Since I have not seen any evidence of this after 300 turns, I am willing to make a Group 9 decision. The PP cost of buying out Canadian units to send to SOPAC/SWPAC to act as rear area garrisons is too high to be worthwhile. I will make do with what I can scratch together to man the rear areas of SOPAC/SWPAC. And if the Japanese do eventually try to attack the Aleutians , at least the Canadians are still close by and can be bought out in an emergency.
Their Air units are a different matter and I have tried to buy them out and send to SEAC. Their presence, even though they are withdrawn in mid to late 43, means I have strength there when it is needed to attrite the IJAAF. I currently have 3 Kittyhawk Sdns and a Bolingbroke Sdn so that does boost the Burma front considerably.
Now watch what happens when the scripts show me I have made the wrong decision! As if that hasn't happened before!
I also earmark the Canadian units for NorPac, and when I have enough PP. Early on, they guard coastal bases against a Japanese move to grab a base and bomb industry from it. Prince Rupert is valuable for supplying the Aleutians so I put two brigades there. They also help build the port and AF.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:10 pm
by fcooke
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot
Nobody in their right mind would send Canadians to the Pacific!! You would never get them off the beach. I'm sure that's why the Brits never sent any to North Africa...they would have liked it.
They somehow got Canadians off the Italian and French bit... err beaches in the 40s though
Because we are approaching Remembrance Day on Nov. 11, the Italian channel TLN on cable had a few docs about the Canadians in Sicily and then in Italy. In the doc about the Monte Cassino campaign they talked about something I never heard before. Apparently the French army had a large contingent of Zouave soldiers from Morocco who were Foreign Legion irregulars with little discipline. These soldiers took it as their right to rape the Italian women in the area and did so to somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 of them. These refugees from the city of Cassino and other towns in the area fled across the river that ran between the Canadian and Moroccan camps. The Zouaves began to cross the river to continue their assaults on the women, believing the Canadians would not fire on them. In a few incidents the Canadians shot over 25 Zouaves and they stopped trying to cross the river, but continued to assault Italian women in other areas.
The Canadians were in the area after chasing the German 1st Paratroop division out of Ortona on the Adriatic coast in a bloody battle known as "Little Stalingrad" for its ferocity of hand-to-hand fighting. The German Paratroops were an important part of the Monte Cassino defences, and the Canadians and Poles beat them again.
The Italian historians who made the doc emphasized how impressed they were that the Canadians were not only very effective soldiers but showed a humanity to civilians that was not always present when other nations conquered an area. Part of the reason for making the docs (a Canadian-Italian man collaborated with Italian historians on it) was that the Canadians almost never played up their successes in the press or radio during the war, so many people in Canada and other countries were unaware of their accomplishments and sacrifices.
And sadly the destruction on Monte Cassino was a cultural tragedy. I had not heard about the rapefest before so thanks for sharing - I learned something today.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:25 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: fcooke
And sadly the destruction on Monte Cassino was a cultural tragedy. I had not heard about the rapefest before so thanks for sharing - I learned something today.
That was my reaction when I learned that from the documentary. In our focus on the military aspects of campaigns we tend not to get any info on civilian experiences, which are really needed for perspective. What struck me about the rape tragedy was that it was so avoidable if discipline was truly enforced. I grok that the Moroccans were raised with a different cultural value on women, and a norm that the conqueror can do what he wants with the conquered, but integration into western armies should have dealt with that idea.
RE: Canadians
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:27 pm
by fcooke
grok - Unix geek?