Matrix Games Forums

Itlaian Frogmen

I wish Steve would still complete the optional frogmen rule...

Commando Frogmen - Mission Gibraltar

Italian Naval Commandos: WW2 Frogmen Raid 1941

Naval Legends: Maiale. Secret weapon of Regia Marina — first Human Torpedo!

Personally, I've never build frogmen with the Axis or the Allies. I don't like "one shot" units at all. The costs are simply to high. And the maximum I ever got with a frogmen attack by the Italians was a "D" result. I usually ended up with getting shot out of the water before the frogmen could do anything...

Think Steve in his month reports has stated that they are not going to work in frogmen

It is a small option to work for a small implication in the game

I love to press on CW or IT with my tiny frogmen and minisub units.

Harry Roland's argument for inclusion of the frogmen is strong; ex he points out that in attacks on British ships in port they accomplished more damage to the British navy than the rest of the Italian navy combined. They had a substantial impact on the naval war in the Med.
As said before, in my opinion Frogmen are an important asset in both the UK and Italian arsenal. They caused substantial damage and won their place in their respective force pool. Remeber that the Japanese used frogmen too,ex at Pearl Harbor and at Sydney.
But they also add a nice flair to the game.

One shot use and never allowed to be rebuilt would be more historic. After the first such attack the victim was pretty much clued in.

The decision not to code them is quite supportable, IMO.

They did make multiple attempts at Gibraltar (rolled poorly), but their big success was at Alexandria. Good thing Winston wanted to use the Bottomed Ships option. And all their success was without even using the Surprise Impulse.

Did the Kriegsmarine pick up a little more success than the non-Frogman Regua Marina as well? 2 CVs sunk at the top of the German list, plenty of “D” results as well.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

They did make multiple attempts at Gibraltar (rolled poorly), but their big success was at Alexandria. Good thing Winston wanted to use the Bottomed Ships option. And all their success was without even using the Surprise Impulse.

Did the Kriegsmarine pick up a little more success than the non-Frogman Regua Marina as well? 2 CVs sunk at the top of the German list, plenty of “D” results as well.

And one spectacular X ... HMS Hood.

I meant purely in the Mediterranean, where the Germans also sank a British BB. And sank more Italian BB than the Allies, too.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I meant purely in the Mediterranean, where the Germans also sank a British BB. And sank more Italian BB than the Allies, too.

Got you. [8D]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Itlaian Frogmen

I wish Steve would still complete the optional frogmen rule...

Commando Frogmen - Mission Gibraltar

Italian Naval Commandos: WW2 Frogmen Raid 1941

Naval Legends: Maiale. Secret weapon of Regia Marina — first Human Torpedo!

Thank you for sharing. [:)]

I also wish that the Frogmen optional would be included. I find it am important option to keep the CW player 'honest' in the Med. There is basically no risk at all for CW to sit with their fleet in Gibraltar, or Port Said, in a game that follows the general historical line of action. The frogmen change this. With the Frogmen the CW player takes a risk when he deploys no picket force in the Med if the Italian player has Frogmen available.

And I do not buy the argument that the frogmen are useless since I've sunk a couple of CW CVs with them. The CW player might have been careless when he lost them. But that is sort of my point...

Yes of course the CW deserted all the major ports in the Med as they were terrified of the frogmen.

I know its a moot point - because the optional isn't going to be coded anyway - but is this one of those Axis fanboi rules or does it cater for the British midget subs too?

The British “Minisubs” (WiF term; the RN called them the X-craft, I believe?) are in Ships in Flames as are Japan’s.

The Royal Navy didn’t abandon their Med bases, no, but they also didn’t see the attack potential and that cost them 2 Battleships for over 2 years each, iirc. At Gibraltar the operations of Flotilla X only cost them some auxiliaries. The Italians also managed to nearly sink a CA with just speedboats - probably why the CE rules allow ‘frogman’ counters to attack at sea now, and also include America PT-Boats in this type of counter.

And ultimately BBs weren’t all that significant in the Med anyway and one could argue that neither were CVs outside of occasionally ferrying fighters to Malta. The RN lost 2 CVs sunk and one more nearly sunk in the Med and still won the war in the Med handily. Land-based air ruled the theater in a generic sense.

But all of that could have been different, and that’s why we play World in Flames.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The British “Minisubs” (WiF term; the RN called them the X-craft, I believe?) are in Ships in Flames as are Japan’s.

The Royal Navy didn’t abandon their Med bases, no, but they also didn’t see the attack potential and that cost them 2 Battleships for over 2 years each, iirc. At Gibraltar the operations of Flotilla X only cost them some auxiliaries. The Italians also managed to nearly sink a CA with just speedboats - probably why the CE rules allow ‘frogman’ counters to attack at sea now, and also include America PT-Boats in this type of counter.

And ultimately BBs weren’t all that significant in the Med anyway and one could argue that neither were CVs outside of occasionally ferrying fighters to Malta. The RN lost 2 CVs sunk and one more nearly sunk in the Med and still won the war in the Med handily. Land-based air ruled the theater in a generic sense.

But all of that could have been different, and that’s why we play World in Flames.

warspite1

Well the RN did largely abandon Malta - but that was not because of the Human Torpedoes - and when the German air force wasn't in Sicily they tended to come back [;)].

I don't know where two years came from. Valiant was out of action for about 7-8 months and QE was back after a year and a half.

I think you do something of a dis-service to the BB - and certainly the carriers. "Occasionally" ferrying aircraft doesn't begin to cut it. Those aircraft helped save Malta and there were more than the occasional ferry operations. Indeed so desperate was Malta's need for fighters in 1942 that the British asked the USN for USS Wasp to assist after the loss of Ark Royal. The presence of the carriers - yes, even Eagle - stopped the Italians from doing what they should have done and gone after the generally slower, older, out-ranged British battleships.

A lot has been made of the attack on QE and Valiant - but of course it was the carrier Illustrious that allowed the FAA to do the same to three Italian battleships - one of which never took to sea again.

The frogmen that took part in the attack on Alexandria were brave and did a good job. Sadly for the Italians it was a case of too little too late. They squandered their advantage in the Med - even when the Germans arrived with their aircraft. So by the time the two BB's were removed from the RN OOB, the Italians had wasted 18 months and a whole lot of fuel.....

As the British (and Japanese) get these units too, I think they probably provide a nice bit of chrome to the game - but in terms of MWIF's o/s problems, I don't see how the effort on their coding can be justified.

I just think that British submarines won the war in the Med, along with some Light Cruisers and smaller forces. They did impact Rommel’s operations many times.

Perhaps without CV support Malta would have been less tenable overall. This does make me wonder - how often did a CV fly CAP missions to defend Malta? I am only familiar with their ops to ferry fighters to Malta, of which there were several, though the Illustrious was also escorting a desperate supply convoy and probably flying CAP to do it. Did the Tiger convoy include CV air cover? My memory of CVs & Malta is that the CVs couldn’t usually get too close - too dangerous.

Battleships in the Med though; I can’t think of the BBs on either side impacting land operations all that much. The shelling of Monte Cassino is the only thing coming to mind, and fire support at Anzio and Sicily too. Did BBs ever interdict any enemy shipping in the Med?


In CE, the British must set up a solid fleet in Egypt. I have learned to place the CV & 3 BBs in Suez - the hard way. The CW chose to focus their first impulse on land ops in Poland, which definitely messed with the German army. The Italians then declared war; the Royal Navy discovered war had begun when the Glorious exploded in Alexandria harbor with so many charges attached there was not enough bottom left dream of raising it. A 10 Surprise roll for the CW, the Frogmen do have to pass a bit of a saving throw themselves even on the surprise impulse but they did. From that point the luck see-sawed for the rest of the turn. The Damage rolls on the Battleships all passed; but the Abort rolls all failed, leaving 3 flipped BBs and a Cruiser in Alex. as their crews began various emergency repairs far from home. On a subsequent impulse, Italian SUBs in the Red Sea intercepted a troop convoy from India in the Red Sea, nearly sinking it and spiraling the Indian INF back to India until the next turn. This left the Wavell HQ alone in Alex. staring down an Italian army, which then came within one pip on the dice of taking the city, and the port with the stranded Med. Fleet still there. That would have given the bad guys another 30% shot at sinking each ship and that 10% chance of capture. The Frogmen had nearly left a major mark on the war.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I just think that British submarines won the war in the Med, along with some Light Cruisers and smaller forces. They did impact Rommel’s operations many times.

warspite1

I have some stats I can dig out that may surprise you - just have to remember which book(s) the information is in.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Perhaps without CV support Malta would have been less tenable overall. This does make me wonder - how often did a CV fly CAP missions to defend Malta? I am only familiar with their ops to ferry fighters to Malta, of which there were several, though the Illustrious was also escorting a desperate supply convoy and probably flying CAP to do it. Did the Tiger convoy include CV air cover? My memory of CVs & Malta is that the CVs couldn’t usually get too close - too dangerous.

warspite1

The British CV's barely had enough fighter strength for its own purposes. Plus the needs of the Home Fleet and losses meant that there was rarely more than two (two and a half if you count Eagle) in the Med - Ark Royal in the Western Basin and Eagle and later Illustrious until damaged, then Formidable for a time in the Eastern). CV's did not have the capability to station off Malta to provide fighter cover for the island (not to mention the lack of fighter quality provided by the Fulmar). Its why they needed the RAF fighters.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Battleships in the Med though; I can’t think of the BBs on either side impacting land operations all that much. The shelling of Monte Cassino is the only thing coming to mind, and fire support at Anzio and Sicily too. Did BBs ever interdict any enemy shipping in the Med?

warspite1

It's important I think, not to look at things with hindsight. The battleships - on both sides - were important in providing cover for convoys to Malta/North Africa/Greece. The Italians had newer, faster, and more powerful BB's. The aircraft replacement for Malta would not have been possible without BB escort for Ark Royal. Ditto the convoys from the east. Look at the Second Battle of Sirte (after the attack on Alexandria). With a more aggressive commander, the Italian battleships should have carved up the British force sans battleships.

One can't think Pacific War for the Mediterranean. Aircraft numbers and quality were not the same. Battleships were very important. Look at Matapan. Air power crippled a cruiser - it was the BB's that sunk the squadron.

Looking at the rule, I wonder if a random event could generate a virtual frogmen 'chit' and prompt the player to make an attack at a designated port. Maybe charge the player for the chit. Then resolve the attack with an automated interception, search roll, and execution. Maybe allow target selection or just keep it random. This could provide the intended historical effect without a lot of complicated coding. Just a thought.