Matrix Games Forums

AMC
For the first few months of the war these units provide some diversion an interest. And these Commerce traders did have some success I think more so in the First World War but never mind I want to MoD them a little bit better.

What would be the best ways to improve them?In our game they seem to have performed poorly except in one circumstance. My opponent claims they never use their torpedoes. I don't know why this is?

Would it be fair to improve the starting quality of the experience, remember this is a hypothetical Mod . But is there a limit to these kind of ships? One would think because they had a fairly small crew that they would be a little bit more handpicked for these kind of covert operations.

I suppose choosing better captains would also be a good idea.

Any other ideas for modding these in a slightly better way please.

Thanks

Cav

A little bit of armor so they dont die to DD guns , increase range to extreme so they can go a long time without refueling , increase the ammo so they are not out of ammo after 1 engagement. I got another concept , AMC's spawn behind enemy lines at random times with a task force but has a withdraw date in 2-3 months , another one with same name spawns a month after withdrawal date to kinda simulate AMC's sneaking past allied search as a neutral ship

Ok all interesting ideas ( I had thought of a few of these already) - what about crew quality can it be raised to a reasonable level or do you think its hard codded for the type of ship it is?? Thanks for your suggestions...

I dont know about hardcoded stuff , i assume you can increase it to reasonable levels

Thanks ships I think have certain max levels like AK etc. I changed a couple to around 30 seems ok??

Well, just my thoughts ... and several have already given these in the original thread ...

AMC's are incredibly useful as they exist subsequent to the early landing bonus that IJ has. So after March 42, this is a class that I make sure I have prepped as many as possible because they, like the AK's, get a landing bonus and are essentially the only large ships that the IJ gets with for the balance of the game. (IJ doesn't have any AP/APA nor AKA). They IJ can get only a few AK's and even when converting space to troop space, you just don't have enough. So converting xAP's to AMC's is a useful tactic.

Like all ships, they do increase exp with use, but this doesn't really impact much in terms of the game. They do help with shore bombardment, but you always want to have a BB with any landing to absorb the shore fire and provide good suppression.

Yes fair enough - I was considering more their very early use as deep ocean commerce raiders Agree they seem more useful in other roles...

ORIGINAL: Cavalry Corp

Ok all interesting ideas ( I had thought of a few of these already) - what about crew quality can it be raised to a reasonable level or do you think its hard codded for the type of ship it is?? Thanks for your suggestions...

If the value fields for experience are left blank in the editor, the ships will get a basic value determined by the game, according to tables including the nationality, type of ships and date of appearance.

Otherwise, you may set higher values in the editor, and pre-select a better captain.

The problem AMCs might have in the vast expanses of the Pacific is finding targets. You need a way to get some DL on enemy TF to find them, otherwise it’s pure blind luck to stumble on one of them. So, if you really want to improve their capabilities to intercept convoys (or lone cargoes), you might add some floatplanes.

Yes thanks for this and inn the mode they have 2 FP , twice in our game they have fond weak allied convoys but failed to press any advantage - They have sunk two xAK though with bombers on board, they could have done much more damage. They have been working in conjunction with subs/ Glen FP as well.

AMC's were not "Commerce traders", they were Commerce Raiders.

AMC's are an offensive weapon of the weak against a stronger adversary. AMC's are horse flies, not eagles. The German Navy was always inferior to the Royal Navy and therefore used AMC's for commerce raiding. The Royal Navy used AMC's defensively only when it could not spare conventional warships to escort convoys in the western Atlantic.

The Germans successfully employed these in the Atlantic, Indian and Pacific Oceans in both World Wars. I'm not sure the Japanese had many although they did impress some small merchant shipping as auxiliary gunboats for harbor defense.

AMC's were not intended to engage escorted convoys, they were intended to intercept merchant ships sailing independently.

At least one German AMC was sunk by an armed American Liberty Ship, so the AMC was not invulnerable even though some may have had armor around key spots. The idea was to shoot and kill before being shot at.

As far as float planes, in WWII many if not most German AMC's had Arado 196 or other floatplanes to scout. I don't see why if you wanted a hypothetical Japanese ship you could not put aboard one or two Dave's or Paul's. Of course with its better land-based airpower during the first six months of the war (Betty's, Nell's etc) air reconnaissance support could have been done from shore bases in communication with these hypothetical AMCs. Not sure there were many independent Allied merchant ships to find though, especially after the DEI fell.

The Japanese from Dec 7, 1941 until early 1943 had such superiority in numbers of small combatants that they had no real need for AMC's. Also, the IJN prioritized attacks on warships rather than merchant ships. If they saw Allied convoys as honorable targets they would have employed their large submarine fleet against them.

Finally the Japanese were always short of lift once they occupied the Outer Defense Perimeter. Their merchant ships were much more valuable as transports than as weak warships.

Just some random thoughts on the topic ...

Regards,

Joe Molyson

Joe

Yes here what you say.

They have been modded in the kind of ethos of the mod so that they may look for very weak groups of allied ships till say March 42 or stragglers. Before ( and in real playtesting) they were a bit too weak to be any use at all. After a few months I agree and have modded that they have other better uses but players may have some cat and mouse with them as the war opens its part of the chrome of the scn. Some of these these ships as modded in RA 8.0 which is my scn base they do have FP already - usually 2.

Remember this is for a hypothetical mod and the policy of both sides is a little more toward old fashioned tactic, expecting surface actions as the war opens. I do appreciate your comments and for sure they are still horse flies...

So in line with the idea at the very start (first few months when allied escorts are very thin) the IJN may use them in a surface capacity...They have a tiny bit of armour, some a few more single guns, some slightly better exp and a better range at the expense of cargo capacity. DD should easily take them on but others may struggle a bit.

ORIGINAL: Cavalry Corp

Yes thanks for this and inn the mode they have 2 FP , twice in our game they have fond weak allied convoys but failed to press any advantage - They have sunk two xAK though with bombers on board, they could have done much more damage. They have been working in conjunction with subs/ Glen FP as well.

You might need a more aggressive captain, and make sure the ship is in a Surface Combat TF, not Escort or something else.

Noted and agree, I think the player can decide the Captain on the opening of the game. But do agree.

The main gripe we had was they did not fire their TT:) and disengaged a slower weak TF. Probably the Cpt. Happened 3 times now actually.

ORIGINAL: Cavalry Corp

Noted and agree, I think the player can decide the Captain on the opening of the game. But do agree.

The main gripe we had was they did not fire their TT:) and disengaged a slower weak TF. Probably the Cpt. Happened 3 times now actually.

You can only change the captain when the ship is docked or anchored, not if the ship appears in a TF like suggested by Evoken above.

Yes and thanks. In my mod they start disbanded in forward ports.

If we're not constrained by realism then:

- 20 knots or so of speed
- enough armour to bounce anything smaller than 5 inch guns.
- a half dozen 6 inch guns with oodles of ammo
- radar
- couple of floatplanes
- 40 points or so of durability to give it some damage resistance

Thanks for the suggestions
Well this is hypothetical I agree but it must be convincing.

I gave them a little bit of armour - some ships like CV Junyo were given some steel plates here and there after completion. tiny bit extra durability based on that, ok...
Added a couple of extra guns
No radar - it would not be in the concept of my mod
Floatplanes - yes, many had them anyway.
I improved the quality of the crew a bit, reduced the cargo capacity to increase the fuel capacity so pumped up the range to make them viable for long range missions.
Should provide some interest in the first few months when allied DD in very short supply.These guys can take on smaller grade escort ships.

That said after about April 42 - I see them acting more as AP.

The most important are the number of rounds for weapons, it should be much bigger than default and the crew/captain values

noted - I have 16 rounds for the main guns - is that enough and is it realistic, they had 12 before I think.

These ships would be months at sea but you need to try, the problem that might appear is i feel the game has a very crude way to manage rounds expenditure. It seems to spend half of stock it in a very liberal way and then starts to be stingy. It is possible to manage somewhat this, making the captain not overly aggressive. Try to put it at 59 aggression.