Matrix Games Forums

After operations around Guadalcanal and Tulagi, my carrier based aviators and aircraft are showing fatigue. I've sailed the carrier groups back to Noumea but have only disbanded the damaged escort ships for repair. I have all groups set on stand down, so I am assuming this will lower the fatigue numbers over time.

What is the best way to reduce fatigue of aircraft and crew on carriers, both while at sea, and in port? If you are back in a base, do you leave the aircraft and fliers on the carrier or do you send them ashore?

I also have some land based aircraft which are full of low experience fliers whom I am trying to train up. Some have high fatigue of planes and fliers so I have stood them down.

How do you guys manage to keep fatigue to the point where it is not crippling? In some of my units I have 20 two-engine bombers. If/when their fatigue is down to 0, what settings do you recommend so as not to bring on high fatigue again? I am thinking with a unit with all zero fatigue on planes and fliers, to set it to 50% train, 50% rest. I would assume that on the rest days the fatigued planes would get serviced, while the rested planes will be flown. Are these settings too conservative or too liberal? I'm concerned about leaving valuable planes idle whilst rookies need more flight hours.

Same thing with front line planes. If you set to 100% escort or CAP every day, you're going to bring on high levels of fatigue. What settings do you recommend for a front line unit of fighters or bombers?

Just got my new specs from the optometrist and jumped on here to see how they are. They're alright for the computer. I dont use reading glasses for books but I wear these bifocals for computer because the screen is too far away for my natural sight, but not far enough away for my distance setting. I'll jump off now and get to reading the manual for the few questions I have.

Thanks.

For training: 100% train, range zero, and no rest. Fighters at 1k feet to help their defensive skills. Keep an eye on the fatigue of pilots and aircraft.

Secondary areas, 30% CAP with a certain percentage set to rest and a certain percentage to train - maybe 20% of each. Many people have different techniques. This will give the pilots more hours which kinda, sorta, translates into experience.[;)]

Simply stand down the carrier aircraft or set 50% train and 50% rest. Whatever numbers work for you.

Unless there is major work to be done on the carriers, keep the planes on them. They will be repaired and ready to fly. If you unload/load them, they will become "damaged" each time and will need work. If you fly them off, that can lead to OPs losses. Unlikely, but possible.

Thanks, Joe. What do you consider to be a "too high" fatigue setting for a plane? I have some that are up around 15, some fliers [I use fliers to distinguish between naval aviators, naval pilots and Army pilots, who have nothing to do with waterborne craft] up to 18.

I've had 4 planes lost in 10 days to operational concerns. I am a rookie, but my bones tell me that is too high, even for a theater as large as the one in the Guadalcanal scenario. I noticed, for example, two dive bombers damage on landing on one carrier, which I attributed to fatigued crew. Am I on the right track here? When I played the Coral Sea scenario, the carrier action was so Fast & Furious I did not pay attention to fatigue. And since there are no worthwhile repair assets in that scenario, I didn't pay attention to repair, just enough damage control to get the cripples to any haven so as not to sink at sea. I did lose one or two close to base, and once I lost one in the roads, I would guess. So heartbreakingly close. In this longer scenario fatigue is very much a factor.

So, RangerJoe, if I run my training units 100%, will the ground crews take fatigued planes out of service on their own for downtime TLC, or will my boys fly them until they break?

Since getting from the optometrist's this afternoon I only popped on for a quick post. I dug out my manual and AE "binder" and am going to visit the newb threads and print off some more guides and read them before loading up my saved game. I've still got questions and I guess I can find most of my answers in those areas I just mentioned.

Tasks to implement in my current game:

Recoup fatigue on my carriers.

Maintain and re-lay mines in areas where there has been degradation. [Just read the manual on that and made some notes to self]

Consider laying mines at Lunga and Tulagi. Though, that might be a problem at the moment with Aunty Betty in the neighbourhood. I just moved some Wildcats over to Lunga but since I have no av-support units, I think that was premature.

Get some av-support and engineers to Lunga and Tulagi. STAT!

More supplies to those two bases. Reinforcements, too if/when I can. At the moment my dock is tied up unloading the reinforcements for Tulagi that turned out to be redundant. Once they are unloaded I shall load up some base type units and get them out.

I am so grateful that I took the advice of RangerJoe, BBFanBoy and several others [sorry if I did not name you, but in my heart you are thanked] to forego tackling the 12-8-41 campaign. In this scenario I am running into issues for which I am not yet competent and for which I have questions and concerns. I have the space and time in this scenario to make mistakes and learn from them. If I had gone into the grand campaign I'd be making bigger mistakes and likely ruining the experience. When it comes time that I feel like a big boy and confident of taking on Japan in a four year war I wish to do it in earnest, not as a sandbox throwaway game.

To my fellow rookies: I really advise you to follow the advice of the forum big boys and start with Coral Sea and then Guadalcanal. They really are good training you should undertake before the big game. In addition to having to learn more about minefield maintenance, fatigue issues, repair and surface combat, I am feeling a little deficient in my logistics. That's also another area I am going to review when I get back to the books.

One last question: Due to Port Moresby and Port Milne having smaller docks, I am thinking of piling supply [only] into amphibious TFs and sending it ashore over the beach, while reserving the dock space for the LCUs I am beginning to ferry over. The first ground unit I am just now sending to PM in a transport TF is Aus 1st Corps HQ. I'm thinking that will help with combat bonuses as well as help with replacements [when I have the supplies built up]. Do you think this is a good way to maximize supply input, or is there something else I have not considered? At present I am not seeing any surface or submarine action in the area. IJN seems focused on the Guadalcanal-Tulagi area. Same thing with Lunga; I am thinking of amphibious TF to get supplies in and transport for LCUs. I know Aunty Betty is around and would likely be a threat to amphibs unloading supply, but trying to feed supply and LCU through that little dock is a bottleneck.

Air units:

Basically I do not care about fatigue. I run them, e.g. Fighters 50% CAP or 100% Training all the time. With combat operations, ops losses are inevitable. As in real life, they account high % of losses.

It has effect on Operational losses, but it is nothing that Allies cannot take. With Japanese have to be bit more careful.

Plane fatigue will take them out to be damaged, it's the maintenance that takes care of it.

Don't get too deep into minor details, you are highest commander, not the "wrench monkey". First familiarize yourself with operational and tactical necessities, then tinker with minor details. [8D]

To add:

You drive yourself mad if trying to get everything right first time. Failure is the best teacher.

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

To add:

You drive yourself mad if trying to get everything right first time. Failure is the best teacher.

You're right, failure is the best teacher. However, being the self-critical type of person I am, I prefer to learn from the failures of others before my own. That way, I can be doubly hard on myself when I make a failure someone else has already made.

Perhaps, since this is a learning experience, I will just run it and see what happens. Maybe I'll send out a crew like in the film, Unbroken If you have not seen that film, there is a scene in which a B-24 crashes into the Pacific when their old crate of spare parts fails during flight.

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

To add:

You drive yourself mad if trying to get everything right first time. Failure is the best teacher.

You're right, failure is the best teacher. However, being the self-critical type of person I am, I prefer to learn from the failures of others before my own. That way, I can be doubly hard on myself when I make a failure someone else has already made.

Perhaps, since this is a learning experience, I will just run it and see what happens. Maybe I'll send out a crew like in the film, Unbroken If you have not seen that film, there is a scene in which a B-24 crashes into the Pacific when their old crate of spare parts fails during flight.

What I mean, don't try to get it right first time. No-one can.

Tinker with it. That way you learn best.

When something fails, think why it did. If cannot figure out, ask. [8D]

Sometimes the OPs losses occur no matter what. Maybe the nurse was rather energetic the night before. [;)]

Sometimes they are because of battle damage or other damage during the flight, maybe weather, there are a lot of things that can go wrong. The plane might suck a couple of birds into the engines and have to land in the water.

Any mission over two hexes away from their base can increase ops losses.

To help out, give the important air unit extra airplanes - "Reserves" - so if one breaks, they can take out a new one.

Naval support will help loading and unloading of units and supply but not fuel, oil, nor resources. Those Naval Support squads are found in some base units (usually naval type) along with the Naval HQs and sometimes other HQs, SWPAC comes to mind. Sometimes other units as well so look at all of the support units for them. But it also depends upon the scenario. Naval support will also help with minor repairs.

Supplies, troops, and equipment unloaded over the beach are subject to losses.

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Plane fatigue will take them out to be damaged, it's the maintenance that takes care of it.

Ever seen units with 100+ fatigue on every plane and zero damage? I did. It happens e.g. with some continuous training on a carrier even when reserve planes are available. Then when battle finally comes, operational losses must be pretty ugly for that fatigue.

When this kind of unit stands down, all planes enter maintenance at once - so the need is there. They just somehow try to persevere before that. Maybe 90% training instead of the usual 100 will help.

Granted, I did not do any in-game tests (yet) on the effect of plane fatigue on losses maybe it is indeed a paper tiger, or maybe not

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Plane fatigue will take them out to be damaged, it's the maintenance that takes care of it.

Ever seen units with 100+ fatigue on every plane and zero damage? I did. It happens e.g. with some continuous training on a carrier even when reserve planes are available. Then when battle finally comes, operational losses must be pretty ugly for that fatigue.

When this kind of unit stands down, all planes enter maintenance at once - so the need is there. They just somehow try to persevere before that. Maybe 90% training instead of the usual 100 will help.

Granted, I did not do any in-game tests (yet) on the effect of plane fatigue on losses maybe it is indeed a paper tiger, or maybe not

i hardly ever train CV air onboard 100%, carrier pilots are usually busy otherwise. If not at sea, in bars telling they are carrier pilots.. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

To add:

You drive yourself mad if trying to get everything right first time. Failure is the best teacher.

You're right, failure is the best teacher. However, being the self-critical type of person I am, I prefer to learn from the failures of others before my own. That way, I can be doubly hard on myself when I make a failure someone else has already made.

Perhaps, since this is a learning experience, I will just run it and see what happens. Maybe I'll send out a crew like in the film, Unbroken If you have not seen that film, there is a scene in which a B-24 crashes into the Pacific when their old crate of spare parts fails during flight.

What I mean, don't try to get it right first time. No-one can.

Tinker with it. That way you learn best.

When something fails, think why it did. If cannot figure out, ask. [8D]

Oh, yeah, I'm learning fast in this Guadalcanal scenario. Combat is a good teacher. Dumbass that I am, I flew Wildcats into Lunga, but no air support assests at all! They are doing fine so far; I have support units on the way, but will they keep flying until then? They just clobbered some Bettys. Shot down five, damaged two. Several damaged and killed by flak. They are after my resupply at Lunga, it seems.

I now have a scouting report of 7-8 ships around the cape end of New Guinea. I've got two carriers going up there to take a look.

Fly in air support using Catalinas.

OK, I've not read the whole thread here, but there's a way to get planes to recover quicker. Otherwise just leaving them on the CV takes forever for them to recover fatigue.

First you should be careful not to exceed base stacking and AS.

So, take your disbanded CV and pick an air unit to move to the base. Once there all planes will be disabled. They will repair in a day or two and have little or no fatigue. Move planes back to CV. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Don't quite understand where the fat comes in in training. The majority here have been in training for a while with 100% training, range 0. Plane fat is about double and height doesn't matter. Only thing that produces increased fat is range. Leave it at 0.

At 100% training, at 10k feet, and zero range, there is minimal fatigue.

If you train your fighter pilots at 1000 feet they get fatigue from the low flying (but that also improves defence ratings).

Same comment applies to low nav or low ground training at 1000 feet - more fatigue is involved down there.

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

Thanks, Joe. What do you consider to be a "too high" fatigue setting for a plane? I have some that are up around 15, some fliers [I use fliers to distinguish between naval aviators, naval pilots and Army pilots, who have nothing to do with waterborne craft] up to 18.

This is somewhat high, not « too high » ; land-based front-line units may continue operating at such levels. As Chris21wen’s picture shows, even training at range 0 involves a continuous fatigue at around 5. If your front-line squadrons hold around 15, and don’t have too many planes grounded for maintenance at the same time, it’s a sustained operational tempo, but I wouldn’t be too concerned.

As for CV squadrons, bear in mind that they’re not meant to operate on a sustained basis in ‘42, or even ‘43. They’re a raiding force, or covering force. The campaigns evolve with pulses of action followed by a lull. If you run them continuously, you’ll have fuel problems : a Yorktown-class CV expends 15 fuel per hex at cruise speed, so at least 120/day, a North Carolina BB around the same, cruisers half as much. And you have 3 CV, one BB, a dozen cruisers, and countless other ships, with only 2000 fuel per day at Noumea (and a trickle in Sydney if memory serves). The situation will be even worse once you get the reinforcement ships (one CV, several CVE, several BB, and a lot of cruisers and destroyers).

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

with only 2000 fuel per day at Noumea (and a trickle in Sydney if memory serves). .

By then you should have a flow for the eastern USA to Capetown off map, and cargo TFs re-lifting it to Perth or Adelaide were fuel flows into the Aust'n rail grid.

And, @Randy - when, in the campaign game you send a cargo TF round the "left elbow route"* to Noumea, throw a tanker or two of fuel in there, and you'll soon have things humming.

[*a "left arm" going down south of Xmas Is, and then straightening the elbow and running west below Samoa and Fiji, branching off to Pago Pago, Suva, Noumea, Sydney/Brisbane/Auckland as required. Once you have the liberty ships in numbers, 6 to 8 in a convoy can carry and refuel two ASW escorts and a couple of the longer range tankers without needing a gas station stop; before that, you set up a refuel depot at Xmas Island, or Bora Bora.]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

with only 2000 fuel per day at Noumea (and a trickle in Sydney if memory serves). .

By then you should have a flow for the eastern USA to Capetown off map, and cargo TFs re-lifting it to Perth or Adelaide were fuel flows into the Aust'n rail grid.

And, @Randy - when, in the campaign game you send a cargo TF round the "left elbow route"* to Noumea, throw a tanker or two of fuel in there, and you'll soon have things humming.

[*a "left arm" going down south of Xmas Is, and then straightening the elbow and running west below Samoa and Fiji, branching off to Pago Pago, Suva, Noumea, Sydney/Brisbane/Auckland as required. Once you have the liberty ships in numbers, 6 to 8 in a convoy can carry and refuel two ASW escorts and a couple of the longer range tankers without needing a gas station stop; before that, you set up a refuel depot at Xmas Island, or Bora Bora.]

That is good advice for a campaign game but he is currently playing the Guadalcanal campaign.