Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:22 am**

I've been looking for a game that reproduces the war in the Mediterranean but no one meets my requirements.
Desert war is an wego and i prefer igougo.
Obviously the focus is on North Africa but you could add Malta, Crete and Gibraltar.
What is missing from the commercial games is the naval war between the Italian and British navies.
War that translates into war for convoys, with the problem of getting supplies to Tripoli by the Italian navy and to Malta or Alessandria for the British.
Obviously,air attacks with torpedos should also be covered.
We find an infinite number of games dealing with the same theme (ex.war in russia) but very little on the mediterranean and and this could be a starting point for some developers,if it is developed with a high level of detail.
The games could cover many what if.[font="Arial"][/font]

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:53 am**

ORIGINAL: fran52

I've been looking for a game that reproduces the war in the Mediterranean but no one meets my requirements.
Desert war is an wego and i prefer igougo.
Obviously the focus is on North Africa but you could add Malta, Crete and Gibraltar.
What is missing from the commercial games is the naval war between the Italian and British navies.
War that translates into war for convoys, with the problem of getting supplies to Tripoli by the Italian navy and to Malta or Alessandria for the British.
Obviously,air attacks with torpedos should also be covered.
We find an infinite number of games dealing with the same theme (ex.war in russia) but very little on the mediterranean and and this could be a starting point for some developers,if it is developed with a high level of detail.
The games could cover many what if.[font="Arial"][/font]

warspite1

Lol - you've echoed my anguished cries for this over the years!!

The Mediterranean War actually had more naval engagements than the Pacific War. In terms of attraxcting wargamers from across the world, the number of countries involved was high - US, almost all Commonwealth dominions, French, Greek, Italian, German (plus hosts of conquered nations fighting with the Commonwealth - Poles, Czechs etc) and possibly Spanish and Turkish.

All manner of warfare was undertaken: submarine, naval surface warfare, merchant marine, paradrops, tanks, infantry, commandoes, special forces (naval), air warfare, naval air warfare strategic bombing etc etc etc. about the only thing the campaign didn't have was carrier vs carrier warfare.

It is truly a campaign that could have been won by either side.

Economics seems to dictate we get more Bulge games, or Eastern Front games or war in the west after the war had been practically decided, but this fascinating campaign from June 1940 - May 1943 gets overlooked.

How this subject cries out for a detailed, serious game covering land, air and sea. But I suspect it's never going to happen...[:(]

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:29 pm**

Also my dream. A 1940-43 game in all the mediterranean sea (with "what if" scenarios as Gibraltar).
But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front [8|]

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:40 pm**

ORIGINAL: Piteas

Also my dream. A 1940-43 game in all the mediterranean sea (with "what if" scenarios as Gibraltar).
But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front [8|]

warspite1

Lol - yes, I bet even if one was brought out it would be called Rommel's war or some such cobblers and start in February 1941 [8|]

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:58 pm**

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Piteas

Also my dream. A 1940-43 game in all the mediterranean sea (with "what if" scenarios as Gibraltar).
But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front [8|]

warspite1

Lol - yes, I bet even if one was brought out it would be called Rommel's war or some such cobblers and start in February 1941 [8|]

Call it "The Desert Fox" and show a British officer . . . [:D]

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:08 pm**

Call it A Desert Too Far and a mug shot of Mussolini and Hitler.

OOOPS...wrong one.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:36 pm**

ORIGINAL: Lobster
a mug shot of Mussolini and Hitler.

Speaking of Mussolini, I grew up seeing
documentaries of him dressed in his military
uniform, standing on a balcony, giving bombastic
speeches to adoring crowds below.

Not knowing a word of Italian, I did not have a clue
what he was saying.

Later, I discovered he could speak English
reasonably well and there is an old speech
he gave meant for Italian immigrants in
North America.

Many of you may have already seen it but if not,
it is quite startling to hear him in English.

Mussolini speaks in English

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:57 pm**

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Call it A Desert Too Far and a mug shot of Mussolini and Hitler.

OOOPS...wrong one.

Here is one flag that they could put on the box!

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:01 pm**

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack

ORIGINAL: Lobster
a mug shot of Mussolini and Hitler.

Speaking of Mussolini, I grew up seeing
documentaries of him dressed in his military
uniform, standing on a balcony, giving bombastic
speeches to adoring crowds below.

Not knowing a word of Italian, I did not have a clue
what he was saying.

Later, I discovered he could speak English
reasonably well and there is an old speech
he gave meant for Italian immigrants in
North America.

Many of you may have already seen it but if not,
it is quite startling to hear him in English.

Mussolini speaks in English

Grazie!

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:25 pm**

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Piteas

Also my dream. A 1940-43 game in all the mediterranean sea (with "what if" scenarios as Gibraltar).
But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front [8|]

warspite1

Lol - yes, I bet even if one was brought out it would be called Rommel's war or some such cobblers and start in February 1941 [8|]

Call it "The Desert Fox" and show a British officer . . . [:D]

warspite1

Indeed - or they could take a leaf out of GG games, and War In the East, War In The West and War in the Pacific, and call it War In The Mediterranean [:D]

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:27 pm**

Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8|]

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:31 pm**

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8|]

warspite1

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The land war engine for WITP-AE is no good for WITM and the naval war for WITE and WITW is no good for WITM either. We are talking the dog's dangly bits of a game. Detailed naval warfare on an individual ship basis, and land units at battalion size.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:06 pm**

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8|]
warspite1

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The land war engine for WITP-AE is no good for WITM and the naval war for WITE and WITW is no good for WITM either.

One of the biggest myths again. The land war works fine for an OPERATIONAL game [The question is do you want an operational or tactical game?]. I have played the game non stop since 2004 or first iteration therefore I think I know what I am talking about. Hexes = 40 miles. In a much smaller scenario as the Mediterranean, hexes might be = 10... or 5 miles [;)]

Where's the problem exactly? [&:] Daily turns. You push your counters, they meet the enemy = your orders, generalissimo? Defend, deliberate, bombard or shock attack?

As I see it, the closest thing you'll get as we speak is a modded scenario of current WITP AE.

Battalions you say. Pffft. Amateurs [:'(] I have Australian sections trolling in New Guinea.

Just for the record I also played (PBEM) the other monster operational game WITE. When almost everybody was massing (a thick carpet) the Soviet units to stop the Wehrmacht, I decided I'd be imitating real life and used consecutive defensive lines. Looks like the engine was good because with *this* real strategy (carpets were a fantasy) historical outcomes were more or less achieved (I even got Guards status *armies* before the first winter). In other words, I know how to conduct land operations in operational games.

You need a mod, Warspite. Besides, WITP AE is a LOGISTICAL DREAM, exactly what you need in your theater.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:17 pm**

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8|]
warspite1

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The land war engine for WITP-AE is no good for WITM and the naval war for WITE and WITW is no good for WITM either. We are talking the dog's dangly bits of a game. Detailed naval warfare on an individual ship basis, and land units at battalion size.

Use whatever engine works best for the naval, the air, and the land forces then integrate them. It may take recoding them but those would be the starting points.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:21 pm**

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8|]
warspite1

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The land war engine for WITP-AE is no good for WITM and the naval war for WITE and WITW is no good for WITM either.

One of the biggest myths again. The land war works fine for an OPERATIONAL game [The question is do you want an operational or tactical game?]. I have played the game non stop since 2004 or first iteration therefore I think I know what I am talking about. Hexes = 40 miles. In a much smaller scenario as the Mediterranean, hexes might be = 10... or 5 miles [;)]

Where's the problem exactly? [&:] Daily turns. You push your counters, they meet the enemy = your orders, generalissimo? Defend, deliberate, bombard or shock attack?

As I see it, the closest thing you'll get as we speak is a modded scenario of current WITP AE.

Battalions you say. Pffft. Amateurs [:'(] I have Australian sections trolling in New Guinea.

Just for the record I also played (PBEM) the other monster operational game WITE. When almost everybody was massing (a thick carpet) the Soviet units to stop the Wehrmacht, I decided I'd be imitating real life and used consecutive defensive lines. Looks like the engine was good because with *this* real strategy (carpets were a fantasy) historical outcomes were more or less achieved (I even got Guards status *armies* before the first winter). In other words, I know how to conduct land operations in operational games.

You need a mod, Warspite. Besides, WITP AE is a LOGISTICAL DREAM, exactly what you need in your theater.

There are people who have even modded German and Italian units into WITP:AE so that information is already there.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:37 pm**

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

There are people who have even modded German and Italian units into WITP:AE so that information is already there.

I know, I was very active in the forum when a Spanish guy (Fremen iirc) made and shared this mod, which I downloaded. Good stuff. No AI though. And old WITP had some problems: no way to stop the bomber planes from attacking let's say murderous spots = maximum range was not available as an option.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:49 pm**

We need the air/land war engine of WITW or WITE 2 coupled with WITPAE for the naval aspect.

I would pay £100 for such a game if it covered the WW II Med theatre.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:55 pm**

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

We need the air/land war engine of WITW or WITE 2 coupled with WITPAE for the naval aspect.

I would pay £100 for such a game if it covered the WW II Med theatre.

The problem with Warspite's dream is that he wants a very detailed game (= WITP AE that is, there's no other candidate out there). It's simple: who's going to make it?

It's clear a WitM would not suffice. The naval and logistical war would be missing or very simplified.

Posted: **Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:21 pm**

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

We need the air/land war engine of WITW or WITE 2 coupled with WITPAE for the naval aspect.

I would pay £100 for such a game if it covered the WW II Med theatre.

The problem with Warspite's dream is that he wants a very detailed game (= WITP AE that is, there's no other candidate out there). It's simple: who's going to make it?

It's clear a WitM would not suffice. The naval and logistical war would be missing or very simplified.

2By3 are the only candidates to make it.

2By3 made the original War In The Pacific as well as WITW, WITE and WITE 2. Their logistical models are highly complex particularly in WITW and WITE 2.

I don't see any one else capable of making such a game. If made by 2By3 the naval and logistical war would be anything but simplified.

Posted: **Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:06 am**

I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM. For the avoidance of doubt that is not to disparage WITP-AE in anyway (which is a hugely successful game that maintains a large and dedicated following). It does however reflect three things:

- WITP-AE is now an 'old' game in terms of graphics and presentation. For those frail of dotage, with eyesight to match, this makes the game too hard on the eyes.
- The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves).
- Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on.

I have acknowledged that my dream game will never happen - certainly not in my lifetime - which is a real shame considering just how ideal the campaign is for wargaming. But that won't stop me plugging this at every opportunity, and it was heartening to see fran52's OP.

Anyway, back to reality....

Matrix Games Forums

Mediterannean war

Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war

RE: Mediterannean war