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Drang Nach Osten - An old monster board game.

Similar to getting too high and ordering six Big Macs
to assuage the munchies, then realizing there is no way
in hell you can eat all those Big Macs.

The Longest Day by Avalon Hill. Not nearly as complicated as some monster games but bad enough.

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack

Drang Nach Osten - An old monster board game.

Similar to getting too high and ordering six Big Macs
to assuage the munchies, then realizing there is no way
in hell you can eat all those Big Macs.

Speak for yourself about you lack of eating ability. [;)]

ASL

But being persistent for 30+ years pays off and the complexity fades away.

The Europa Series, each part of the game system is easy to understand but putting it all together makes it complex.

Battlelines Air Force, even though the map was blank, figuring out the altitude in your head and range to target was too much when I was a teenager.

Ney vs Wellington (and Cassino), the elevation and LOS was a complex nightmare for a 17 year old.

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

The Longest Day by Avalon Hill. Not nearly as complicated as some monster games but bad enough.

Really? That's one of the reasons I like it. Plain mechanics.

Now finding a 5'x5.5' playing surface is tricky. And a spot to store the set up charts is trouble.
And setting up the game is hours of labour. I usually take a few DAYS to do it.

But actually playing it is simple. Moving several thousand counters while tedious, is not complex.

Zeroing in on the term 'complicated', I won't really say ASL. It's a game system, but if you are not in the Pacific, you don't need those rules. No paradrop, don't need the rules. You don't need rules for artillery if there is none. If the scenario has no armour, you don't need the rules. The Guards counterattack isn't a hard scenario.

So I will refrain from selecting the overly obvious choice.

A3R is a complicated choice. Politics, production, economics, the timing of actions.

Most operational scope wargames can be 'complicated' with so many choices.

It's not always how many rules, but how complex is the play of the game.

I'm willing to say Chess is complicated. Based on, ok, how often do you win?

ORIGINAL: Zovs

ASL

But being persistent for 30+ years pays off and the complexity fades away.

The Europa Series, each part of the game system is easy to understand but putting it all together makes it complex.

Battlelines Air Force, even though the map was blank, figuring out the altitude in your head and range to target was too much when I was a teenager.

Ney vs Wellington (and Cassino), the elevation and LOS was a complex nightmare for a 17 year old.

I bet that you had some training in elevation and LOS later on . . . [;)]

For non-wargaming, well, I'd pick any mainstream role game system. For instance, the cliche Dungeons and Dragons. Just try being the person in charge of running it. That's the definition of complicated.

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ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

For non-wargaming, well, I'd pick any mainstream role game system. For instance, the cliche Dungeons and Dragons. Just try being the person in charge of running it. That's the definition of complicated.

I think that it is a "vocation" of sorts. I started playing D&D when I was 15 and I was almost always the Dungeon Master. It is not complicated at all once you know the rules. The same with Call of Cthulhu.

Of course the edition of the rules matters. Basic D&D is simple and straightforward. 3/3.5E was possibly the most complex version, but it was so full of creativity and ideas that I welcomed the complexity. It was a bit like ASL: you didn't need to know the specific rules for running a goblin character, but if a player really wanted to do it they were there.

4E was a disaster: D&D by J.J.Abrams, if you get my drift. I hear that 5E is very, very successful, but I never tried it.

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

4E was a disaster: D&D by J.J.Abrams, if you get my drift.

OT but I think J.J. Abrams is good at disaster. Star Trek, disaster. Star Wars, disaster. [:D]

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ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

4E was a disaster: D&D by J.J.Abrams, if you get my drift.

OT but I think J.J. Abrams is good at disaster. Star Trek, disaster. Star Wars, disaster. [:D]

He took two established franchises and managed a unique stunt: in both, the third movie made half the money than the first.

Which is quite the feat. Every successful franchise, from Harry Potter, to Marvel, to abysses like Fifty Shades of Grey, had one thing in common: the last movie was the most successful in terms of money. Resident Evil was my guilty pleasure but the last movie was beyond dreadful - and yet even it was the most successful of its run.

It is not easy to be J.J. Abrams. You have to work hard. [:@]

Air War by SPI... I still have nightmares about it [:D]

The most complicated and frustrating wargame I played was Harpoon - both the Third Edition by GDW and the current Fourth. There are simply too many things to track at the same time. The first time I tried to run a scenario as the referee I almost wanted to cry.

"Wait, I have to check passive ESM because... reasons... Wait! Go back 15 minutes because... uh... just do that. Passive sonar? Why?! Ah, right! Where is the chart? No wait, first, let me look the stats of... uh... something... Does your towed array... Ah, sure, I was not supposed to mention it..."

But it was not only the first time. It always went this way. I would like to see a "professionally run" game of Harpoon just to see how they manage to remain sane.

Note that I own and played the two other games in the "Admiralty Trilogy": Fear God and Dread Nought, and Command at Sea. I like Seekrieg V more because I'm a rivet counter (and because it comes with the ship sheets precompiled...), but the former two games are simpler and faster, and thus allow for bigger engagements. Tabletop Harpoon is simply beyond me.

Luftschiff. Wasn't even able to start playing it.

ORIGINAL: UP844

Air War by SPI... I still have nightmares about it [:D]

Absolutely this.

/thread

World in Flames.

By the time my friend and I had set up Global War, we'd generally be knackered and take a break for a few beers. We'd play, but as we were beginners, we were slow. Eventually my girlfriend would get sick of all the maps and charts set up and we'd put it away.

Matrix World in Flames is radically faster to play. There's movement on the AI front too, for those not in the know. Steve is starting with the Barbarossa scenario but plenty of groundwork has been done by expert players for everything up to Global War.

Greetings Grognerd_INC,
I found Streets of Stalingrad 1st ed the toughest and Drang Nach Osten a close 2nd.