Matrix Games Forums

Ever wanted to crush the Soviet Air Force and feel like you changed history?

This is how an accident changed my game.

1. Set up game with the AI controlling the Luftwaffe.
2. Clear all air directives. (Because you want learn how to do it).
3. Become distracted by real life and walk away from computer.
4. Come back and without thinking immediately press button to complete Air Phase.
5. Sit back and watch nothing happen. Zero missions flown.
6. Feel like a dunce.
7. Realize you have to restart game.
8. Mentally say screw it and move the ground forces.
9. Watch as your fighters completely dominate the air space.
10. Feel dirty and elated all at the same time.

Screen shot says it all.
Soviet pilot loses through the roof.
German loses minimal.

I'd like some other players to try this. Let us know what your results are.

This has become my new opening air tactic.
Lure the Soviet air force into the sky and beat it there instead of the ground.

This was done a week ago. Had to wait to be able to post screenshot.
Thanks for reading.

AWESOME, glad you found this GEM.

I did this exact thing in this AAR

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4993481

yes, the GS gambit really does a number on the VVS, not least it kills pilots as well.

Fwiw, I think its still worth some D1 airbase work just to set the scene so to speak [;)]

edit look at post 6 in this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932

may give you some idea of the value of keeping some airbase bombing in the set up

To me it is actually a much better opening for the air than bombing airfield because of the Pilot kills. Not to mention this is defiantly for people that want to take the easy road on the first turn instead of spending hours on bombing missions

Soviet starting ADs should probably not be set to "make the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service circa 1945 look like a responsible air force that values its pilots' lives".

...though that's probably not even the problem; the Luftwaffe should have much higher losses if the VVS is left free to fly in the opening days of Barbarossa. Or auto-intercept of enemy ground support should be less deadly or happen less often - I doubt the Luftwaffe could have CAP everywhere along the entire line of contact at all hours of the day, so if the VVS was left free to fly you'd expect a not-insignificant number of ground support missions to drop their payload and get out before the Bf-109s show up. I feel like you should only get nearly guaranteed intercept when fighting under an Air Superiority directive representing proactive fighter sweeps of the battlespace - at the cost of miles flown, fatigue, and higher ops losses.

In any case, you can improve those numbers by bombing around Romania at least. Bombing some fighter bases will shift losses away from fighter-bombers and toward level bombers.

Many "Thanks", for the replies and links.

I imagine sometime in the future this will be adjusted to better recreate the A2A battles that result from not bombing airfields. Until that day, this works well. I'll play around with it and incorporate some airfield attacks, recon missions and ground support.

Currently trying out retraining all Me-110's from bombing to fighters. Takes 8 weeks.

Really enjoying this wargame. The endorphins it produces makes me a happy gamer. [:)]

I wonder if it's worth it to send unescorted bombers on D1 against Mech/Armor units instead of airfields. Most Mech/Armor units don't have flak covering them, and this way, you get to use your TAC/LBs against targets instead of having them useless. Then have your fighters do the normal coverage and nail the soviet airforce in the air.

Ground support without bombers is the way to go as axis. a bit gamey though

ORIGINAL: TheFerret
Soviet starting ADs should probably not be set to "make the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service circa 1945 look like a responsible air force that values its pilots' lives".

LOL! I love that sentence. [:D]

Random fun fact, I heard once that apparently the VVS actually *did* do desperation kamikaze attacks (crippled plane, out of ammo in desperate fight, that sort of thing), but with one important difference from the IJN in '45: The pilot would bail out after lining up the attack because they couldn't see any point of dying with their plane.

"I let plane crash into tank. I get new plane, I try to do better tomorrow."

Interesting.I cancelled all AI air missions except one and game crashed.

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

ORIGINAL: TheFerret
Soviet starting ADs should probably not be set to "make the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service circa 1945 look like a responsible air force that values its pilots' lives".

LOL! I love that sentence. [:D]

Random fun fact, I heard once that apparently the VVS actually *did* do desperation kamikaze attacks (crippled plane, out of ammo in desperate fight, that sort of thing), but with one important difference from the IJN in '45: The pilot would bail out after lining up the attack because they couldn't see any point of dying with their plane.

"I let plane crash into tank. I get new plane, I try to do better tomorrow."

I think the logic was actually more grim. I read of Soviet night fighter pilots (without radar etc) who got lost and didn't dare land at an airfield as they weren't sure if it was Axis or Soviet - if it was Axis they would be accused of defecting with consequences for their family (so better to crash without fuel and hope they were in Soviet territory). A few of the Soviet 'ramming' outcomes could have been driven by a similar calculation

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

ORIGINAL: TheFerret
Soviet starting ADs should probably not be set to "make the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service circa 1945 look like a responsible air force that values its pilots' lives".

LOL! I love that sentence. [:D]

Random fun fact, I heard once that apparently the VVS actually *did* do desperation kamikaze attacks (crippled plane, out of ammo in desperate fight, that sort of thing), but with one important difference from the IJN in '45: The pilot would bail out after lining up the attack because they couldn't see any point of dying with their plane.

"I let plane crash into tank. I get new plane, I try to do better tomorrow."

I think the logic was actually more grim. I read of Soviet night fighter pilots (without radar etc) who got lost and didn't dare land at an airfield as they weren't sure if it was Axis or Soviet - if it was Axis they would be accused of defecting with consequences for their family (so better to crash without fuel and hope they were in Soviet territory). A few of the Soviet 'ramming' outcomes could have been driven by a similar calculation

Well, I had heard it an interview with an old Russian pilot talking about it, he seemed kinda proud of it. But I also have no doubt that what you describe happened as well. That is kinda the nature of the Soviet side of the war, acts of bravery and heroism, and other acts where they were more afraid of their own side than they were the enemy.

Another test run without airfield attacks. Using the the latest update.

In WITE1 I stopped doing Axis air missions on T1 very early on. Posted several times. Just some recce. I think it also screws up the Soviet supply system as the Red Air Force demands supply.

Did you turn on and off ground support to maximize VVS losses and minimize Luftwaffe losses? I've decided to start a new campaign testing out this method, and I have had higher LW losses already - 132 pilots, 134 Fighter-Bombers, 3 fighters - only with Army Group North done and the northern half of AGC infantry battles done.

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Did you turn on and off ground support to maximize VVS losses and minimize Luftwaffe losses? I've decided to start a new campaign testing out this method, and I have had higher LW losses already - 132 pilots, 134 Fighter-Bombers, 3 fighters - only with Army Group North done and the northern half of AGC infantry battles done.

Could probably leave the ground support off for the first turn until the VVS fighter fleet is thinned out?
Just a thought, haven't tried it.

That indeed seems to have helped out, neuromancer. I turned off ground support for the initial Army Group North moves with the infantry into Lithuania. I've turned it on for the few border battles with 16th Army, and I've scored over 800 VVS pilot deaths for about 54 Luftwaffe pilots in total so far, without advancing the bulk of 16th Army towards Kaunas and without moving PzGr 4.

The more I see of the air war, the less I believe in it as an abstraction of reality. Combat losses are brutal, often total, AI interception is indiscriminately aggressive, Soviet early war fighters are far more effective than historical accounts suggest, if realistic numbers of Axis aircraft are damaged, they are repaired too quickly but it seems too many of both sides are destroyed. This part of the game really looks unfinished to me.

With few airfields bombed in Romania.

ORIGINAL: Jango32
That indeed seems to have helped out, neuromancer. I turned off ground support for the initial Army Group North moves with the infantry into Lithuania. I've turned it on for the few border battles with 16th Army, and I've scored over 800 VVS pilot deaths for about 54 Luftwaffe pilots in total so far, without advancing the bulk of 16th Army towards Kaunas and without moving PzGr 4.

Cool. [8D]

I noticed that in my games, when I flew my ground support my losses would climb in both bombers and fighters, but if I didn't, the Bf-109s would just chew up the VVS in the air when the Soviets flew their own ground support missions.

As Mehring says, perhaps the air war needs some serious tweaking. Right now I am starting to question the usefulness of ground support, the main result seems to be to kill attacking planes more than anything else.