Matrix Games Forums

The gun and mortar production at least for items below 105mm Art or 75mm AT need to be increased or imports made from captured guns.

Right now various TOE reorganisations that took place in 1942, never mind 1943, are moot because with the current production rates the game will end before even a fraction of the guns needed are produced. Seems to mainly affect the Rumanians but also the Hungarians. The loss routines for the TB boxes mean the Finns and Italians are impacted to a lesser extent while the games attrition model chews up guns just by moving around the map.

Prime examples are Rumanian 120mm mortars and 45mm AT guns. Used in quantity through 1942 only trickle into the pool at the rate of 1 per turn. Just for a Rumanian Cavalry Division to receive it's alloted guns would take a years production.

Also applies to the 76.5 (rechambered to 75) /122 / 152 that saw wide use in 1943 which don't seem to show up at all or again only with 1 per turn.

Finding quantitative data is hard but apparantly early in the war:

37mm AT Bofors 556
47mm AT Breda 545 + 275
47mm AT Schneider 300
100mm mod 1934 L25 guns 680
plethora of 75mm field pieces

In 44 350 75mm AT guns which I can't find in the production list.

I don't know if the solution is to give them bigger beginning pools for some base items, or upping production rates, or give them imports from the captured poo.

I think [I have[:)]] misunderstand the numbers: 47mm M1937 AT.... ar:1 means the AI SHOULD build as many as needed but at least minimum of 1 unless at least 10 are in the pool. The only constraint should be having enough armament points and manpower. But if the # is also a cap then yes there will be an issue. I suppose I'll need to go into the editor and either set them to ar:need by setting the limit to 0 or increase the maximma considerably.

I'm at Turn 68 and have double checked all production numbers. In every case numbers produced are less than turns x production, so ar is a cap.

Bugger. Production should at least equal turn times cap (assuming you don't have squillions in the pool or there is no demand). Is Rumania out of armaments or manpower? I like the minor nations so I'll use the editor to up some of the values before my next restart! I know the caps are supposed to represent the ability of the nations to build the larger/more complex devices but I think the games underestimates the ability of say Rumania to use more captured equivalent equipment.

Your analysis seems to fail to take into account the number of guns already in units at the start of the game. When I reviewed those numbers the result was a bit of a mixed bag as follows:

37mm Bofors
Of the 556 produced, I get 438 in units at start leaving approximately 118 to be produced. As a result I will increase production to 2 per week.

47mm Breda & equivalents
Of a total of 1,120 produced, I get 756 in units at start leaving approximately 364 to be produced which will actually require ending production in 12/44 instead of theoretical 8/45.

100mm howitzer
Of the 680 produced, I get 404 in units at start leaving approximately 276 to be produced which will actually require ending production in 2/44 instead of theoretical 8/45.

120mm Resita Mortar
I can still find no production information on this weapon but I agree with you that production is probably too low. Comparing it to German production and relative size of forces I can see increasing production to 5 mortars per turn.

75mm DT-UDR 26 anti-tank gun
This is device 0246 and enters production in 3/44 at a rate of 5 guns per turn.

75mm field guns
Like the 120mm mortar, I can find no information on the number of these guns available but a huge number are in service when the game begins and 2 per week are "produced" for the entire game (to 8/45) 400+. In reality none were produced and replacements came out of prewar stockpiles. I will have to take it up with the scenario designer about simply putting a few hundred in the starting pool and removing them from production.

Something to remember is that TOEs often call for weapons that are not yet in production. If a unit is not filling out with all of its specified ground elements, check to see if they are in production yet.

ORIGINAL: jaw

Your analysis seems to fail to take into account the number of guns already in units at the start of the game. When I reviewed those numbers the result was a bit of a mixed bag as follows:

37mm Bofors
Of the 556 produced, I get 438 in units at start leaving approximately 118 to be produced. As a result I will increase production to 2 per week.

47mm Breda & equivalents
Of a total of 1,120 produced, I get 756 in units at start leaving approximately 364 to be produced which will actually require ending production in 12/44 instead of theoretical 8/45.

100mm howitzer
Of the 680 produced, I get 404 in units at start leaving approximately 276 to be produced which will actually require ending production in 2/44 instead of theoretical 8/45.

This is what I was trying to get at. These were inventories at the start or at least very early phase of the war. Stretching them out accross several years doesn't really work. A 37mm AT gun has some value in 1942 but is irrelevant in 1944, and the units that needed AT guns had moved on from them. In addition Rumania capitulated in mid 1944.

Also what needs to be accounted for is that the loss routine in the game means guns will be destroyed with no enemy contact, just from moving around. This does not happen to guns in real life and artificially erodes stocks. Ignorable for the big producers that have generous production rates but it heavily impacts the Minors.

That's why IMO these numbers should be guides on what's in the units and starting pool, and then a residual production rate like 1 f.e for the 100mm guns, and 1 or maybe 2 for some of the light AT guns, that corrects for the game damage routines.

ORIGINAL: jaw
120mm Resita Mortar
I can still find no production information on this weapon but I agree with you that production is probably too low. Comparing it to German production and relative size of forces I can see increasing production to 5 mortars per turn.

I only have this info on captured equipment, quoting from Third Axis, Fourth Ally:

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=140648

The following statistics for Romanian holdings of serviceable captured Soviet small arms on 15 April 1943 are on p.148 of Third Axis, Fourth Ally:

Rifles – 116,000
LMGs – 7,817
HMGs – 3,650
A/Tank rifles – 1,236
60mm mortars – 1,555
82mm mortars – 801
120mm mortars – 136

On the same page is a list of serviceable and unserviceable Soviet artillery held on the same date:

45mm A/Tank guns – 709 (standard A/T gun of Romanian cavalry from 1942.)
76.2mm infantry, field and mountain artillery – 693
122mm howitzers and guns – 477
152mm howitzers and guns – 148

These seem to have been what Romania captured up to Stalingrad. The Germans delivered some other ex-Soviet weaponry to help temporarily rebuild the Romanian Army in 1943-44 pending deliveries of new German weaponry.


However what seems clear is that there were 200-300 120mm in inventory by late 42, since I don't find any indication that the 120mm mortar battalions of the 1942 reorganisatoin took until 1944 to be delivered. A better mechanic is probably a few big imports from captured soviet stock in 1942 and then low rate production. The same for the 45 mm AT guns which saw widespread service in a very short time frame.

ORIGINAL: jaw
75mm DT-UDR 26 anti-tank gun
This is device 0246 and enters production in 3/44 at a rate of 5 guns per turn.

Edit: found it as upgrade to Pak97/38, but again, 5 per week until capitulation gives you how many? 300+ had been made by then since production ceased with Soviet occupation.

ORIGINAL: jaw
75mm field guns
Like the 120mm mortar, I can find no information on the number of these guns available but a huge number are in service when the game begins and 2 per week are "produced" for the entire game (to 8/45) 400+. In reality none were produced and replacements came out of prewar stockpiles. I will have to take it up with the scenario designer about simply putting a few hundred in the starting pool and removing them from production.

I agree there was no new production per, but functional replacement at least partially by rechambered captured 76.2 russian guns, reactivating stockpiles of older guns. As late as early 1944 they were expanding the 75mm issue of some units though that seems to have been by partial usage of the 75mm DT-UDR guns in the field artillery role.

ORIGINAL: jaw
Something to remember is that TOEs often call for weapons that are not yet in production. If a unit is not filling out with all of its specified ground elements, check to see if they are in production yet.

My point is TOE's that got filled out within a few months can't be serviced by production that gets averaged out over the entire war. And the fact that something gets issued means it got produced prior. You don't send units singelton guns as new issue. I don't know how the German imports are handled since I didn't get to that stage of the game yet but it would be a similar case. They did not deliver 1 gun a week for 2 years, but several sizable deliveries that would then get issued out en masse in relatively short order. This mechanic should be reflected.


Where I'm getting my numbers

https://www.quartermastersection.com/ro ... artillery/
https://worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=36

BTW, I think the Romanians are completely missing their 650+ 40mm Bofors.