Matrix Games Forums

Been a bit quiet around here lately, so I thought some questions might lead to a discussion.

I know some items did come through Spain, in addition to some 'blockade runners' skirting the coast. What I'm wondering is, how often, and how much of what might have gotten through. Or just plain old Spanish items being bought into the Axis Empire.

About Turkey I've no idea, but I have the same questions.

Have there been any decent books on this particular subject?

Argentinian beef, leather, boots, and other foodstuffs through Spain to Germany. Of course, this did provide jobs and money that were so desperately needed in civil war ravaged Spain. Spanish Wolfram among other things went to Spain to pay off debts from the Spanish Civil War - especially since the Soviet Union stole the Spanish gold.

ORIGINAL: rustysi



Been a bit quiet around here lately, so I thought some questions might lead to a discussion.

I know some items did come through Spain, in addition to some 'blockade runners' skirting the coast. What I'm wondering is, how often, and how much of what might have gotten through. Or just plain old Spanish items being bought into the Axis Empire.

About Turkey I've no idea, but I have the same questions.

Have there been any decent books on this particular subject?

warspite1

There was a discussion in the General Discussion thread recently in which it was fancifully claimed that Germany could have simply 'blitzed' through Spain and Turkey as part of a spiffing wheeze to win the war.

One of the great many things this completely ignored was that German imports of Tungsten (from Portugal and Spain) and Chromium (from Turkey) would have been, at best, disrupted, and at worst stopped completely.

I am not sure what other commodities Germany sourced from these countries, but these were key resources for their armaments industry.

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Have there been any decent books on this particular subject?

I'd be interested in this as well. Payne's work has been on my radar, but I've been disciplined in buying books recently and a strong recommendation may tip me over the edge.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rustysi



Been a bit quiet around here lately, so I thought some questions might lead to a discussion.

I know some items did come through Spain, in addition to some 'blockade runners' skirting the coast. What I'm wondering is, how often, and how much of what might have gotten through. Or just plain old Spanish items being bought into the Axis Empire.

About Turkey I've no idea, but I have the same questions.

Have there been any decent books on this particular subject?

warspite1

There was a discussion in the General Discussion thread recently in which it was fancifully claimed that Germany could have simply 'blitzed' through Spain and Turkey as part of a spiffing wheeze to win the war.

One of the great many things this completely ignored was that German imports of Tungsten (from Portugal and Spain) and Chromium (from Turkey) would have been, at best, disrupted, and at worst stopped completely.

I am not sure what other commodities Germany sourced from these countries, but these were key resources for their armaments industry.

I don't think it's fanciful at all that the Wehrmacht could have blitzed through Spain or Turkey.

The economic situation of Spain after the end of the civil war was grim - doubtful Franco could have maintained the military strength present at the end of the civil war, and at any rate it was far from what we would have considered as a modern European army for the time period - an interesting article on the post-WW2 situation.

Granted, any German invasion of Spain would likely result in British forces being sent in support, but it seems likely to me that it would have ended up an echo of Moore's campaigning rather than Wellington.

As for Turkey, the military position seems likely have been even more advantageous to the Germans.

Regarding these operations winning the war for the Axis, what these commentators tend to forget is that Spain at the time was utterly dependent on foreign (i.e American) oil imports. If Spain was to be invaded (or to join the Axis powers), then Germany would have needed to provide sufficient oil to prevent a complete economic collapse.

The problem with blitzing through Spain and Turkey is that the geography does not favor that approach.

Check out this thread, there is a link to an online book in there somewhere:

The question to ask about The Italians

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4865073

As A Native Turkish,

I can quite easily say that a blitz to Anatolia was quite impossible there was neither sufficient road or railroad infrastructure and it is quite a mountainous region. not to mention that there would be very strong insurgence against ant invading party.

I suppose it's important to define what we mean by invasion regarding Spain - is it a coerced "invitation" to deal with Gibraltar or an outright invasion? That changes the dynamic substantially.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The problem with blitzing through Spain and Turkey is that the geography does not favor that approach.

Check out this thread, there is a link to an online book in there somewhere:

The question to ask about The Italians

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4865073

The geography is absolutely more of a challenge to operations in Spain than the open stretches of Ukraine and the Russian steppe.

That said, it doesn't make up for the deficiencies of the Spanish position in 1940, which is similar to Norway in many respects.

ORIGINAL: guctony

As A Native Turkish,

I can quite easily say that a blitz to Anatolia was quite impossible there was neither sufficient road or railroad infrastructure and it is quite a mountainous region. not to mention that there would be very strong insurgence against ant invading party.

Why would the Germans need to campaign in Anatolia in the first place?

The western stretch of the Marmara region is open to German invasion, and with it the largest concentration of Turkish population and industry.

Turkey in 1940 simply does not have the air power to oppose the Luftwaffe, and so cannot effectively oppose littoral operations in Aegean. With both of those regions in German control, what need is there to push to Ankara?

100% correct especially for turkey the railroads where very poor to nonexistent let alone the geography of turkey and spain was very similar and a major war had just finished the population was exhausted and divided the Germans did not have the logistics the garrison troops to complete successfully that's why hitler spent considerable political resources in the Balkans ie Yugoslavia and Greece and the Italians and the British messed it all up for him

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I suppose it's important to define what we mean by invasion regarding Spain - is it a coerced "invitation" to deal with Gibraltar or an outright invasion? That changes the dynamic substantially.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The problem with blitzing through Spain and Turkey is that the geography does not favor that approach.

Check out this thread, there is a link to an online book in there somewhere:

The question to ask about The Italians

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4865073

The geography is absolutely more of a challenge to operations in Spain than the open stretches of Ukraine and the Russian steppe.

That said, it doesn't make up for the deficiencies of the Spanish position in 1940, which is similar to Norway in many respects.

ORIGINAL: guctony

As A Native Turkish,

I can quite easily say that a blitz to Anatolia was quite impossible there was neither sufficient road or railroad infrastructure and it is quite a mountainous region. not to mention that there would be very strong insurgence against ant invading party.

Why would the Germans need to campaign in Anatolia in the first place?

The western stretch of the Marmara region is open to German invasion, and with it the largest concentration of Turkish population and industry.

Turkey in 1940 simply does not have the air power to oppose the Luftwaffe, and so cannot effectively oppose littoral operations in Aegean. With both of those regions in German control, what need is there to push to Ankara?

Turkey would run to the allies for help every action causes a reaction look at a map clearly the allies wouldn't just sit by and let it happen its just fanciful Germany had no strategic interest in Spain or turkey any way

Not a book, not even on subject, but any mention of 'smuggling' and 'Spain' always bring this to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q80b-veaue8

ORIGINAL: mattj78

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I suppose it's important to define what we mean by invasion regarding Spain - is it a coerced "invitation" to deal with Gibraltar or an outright invasion? That changes the dynamic substantially.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The problem with blitzing through Spain and Turkey is that the geography does not favor that approach.

Check out this thread, there is a link to an online book in there somewhere:

The question to ask about The Italians

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4865073

The geography is absolutely more of a challenge to operations in Spain than the open stretches of Ukraine and the Russian steppe.

That said, it doesn't make up for the deficiencies of the Spanish position in 1940, which is similar to Norway in many respects.

ORIGINAL: guctony

As A Native Turkish,

I can quite easily say that a blitz to Anatolia was quite impossible there was neither sufficient road or railroad infrastructure and it is quite a mountainous region. not to mention that there would be very strong insurgence against ant invading party.

Why would the Germans need to campaign in Anatolia in the first place?

The western stretch of the Marmara region is open to German invasion, and with it the largest concentration of Turkish population and industry.

Turkey in 1940 simply does not have the air power to oppose the Luftwaffe, and so cannot effectively oppose littoral operations in Aegean. With both of those regions in German control, what need is there to push to Ankara?

Turkey would run to the allies for help every action causes a reaction look at a map clearly the allies wouldn't just sit by and let it happen its just fanciful Germany had no strategic interest in Spain or turkey any way

And expect what level of help, exactly?

Worth keeping in mind that it's effectively the British involved in fighting Germany until June of '41. It's unlikely that any new Turkish front is going to be priority, and that's not really a front that's going to lead to Berlin.

It's essentially going to be an extension of the Greek campaign in practice.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I don't think it's fanciful at all that the Wehrmacht could have blitzed through Spain or Turkey.

warspite1

Well if you care to support that comment, let's hope you do more than rely on the rules of an old board game [X(] [;)].

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd be interested in this as well. Payne's work has been on my radar, but I've been disciplined in buying books recently and a strong recommendation may tip me over the edge.

warspite1

I've only read one book of Payne's but I was impressed.

ORIGINAL: guctony

As A Native Turkish,

I can quite easily say that a blitz to Anatolia was quite impossible there was neither sufficient road or railroad infrastructure and it is quite a mountainous region. not to mention that there would be very strong insurgence against ant invading party.

warspite1

Indeed. Remember too that the whole point of 'blitzing' through Turkey is so that a whole German Army Group would invade the Causcasus from Eastern Turkey. I'd love to see that logistical nightmare tackled....

ORIGINAL: mattj78

Turkey would run to the allies for help every action causes a reaction look at a map clearly the allies wouldn't just sit by and let it happen its just fanciful Germany had no strategic interest in Spain or turkey any way

warspite1

Its not the British the Germans would have to worry about. It's the Soviets. I wonder what Stalin's reaction would have been to a German army about to take control of the Straits......

The British had looked at the strategic map and occupied Palestine and Syria, Iran and Iraq over the objections of the denizens of those countries. A move on Turkey would have to guard against a flank attack from Syria/Palestine and a sea attack from the Eastern Med. The RN still controlled the Med, even at great cost from German bombers.

As for neutral Spain and Portugal, I know that Portugal was quite happy to import fuel oil from South America and sell it to the warring parties. During the hunt for U-744, that sub put in to an Azores port and refueled. My Dad's corvette was part of an ASW group that was hunting the sub and his ship also put in to the same port to refuel. Under neutrality laws, the last arriving belligerent could not leave port until 24 hours after the first arriving belligerent. So the U-744 crept out at night and my Dad's ship had to wait a day. But between Ultra intercepts and Huff-Duff (High Frequency Direction Finding) the HK group localized the U-744s location and eventually sank the sub.

Point is, it was useful to Germany to have neutral ports that subs or blockade runners could enter. If Germany overran Spain and Portugal, the British could blockade and interdict the ports. The Azores and Canary Islands would probably have been occupied by the Allies and used as Air/Sea bases to hunt U-boats and bomb German assets in Iberia.

And the real problem was that the Germans were short on manpower once they took on Russia. Even an untroubled occupation like Southern France required troops to keep an eye on things. Spain and Portugal would have been another drain on manpower.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I suppose it's important to define what we mean by invasion regarding Spain - is it a coerced "invitation" to deal with Gibraltar or an outright invasion? That changes the dynamic substantially.

warspite1

It's a blitz through Spain. As per real life, Spain says no to Germany's offer (although the person proposing the strategy believes that Franco could have had his mind changed....) and Hitler decides to invade the country, and the regime that German blood was spilled to install, just the previous year.

Simples

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

And the real problem was that the Germans were short on manpower once they took on Russia. Even an untroubled occupation like Southern France required troops to keep an eye on things. Spain and Portugal would have been another drain on manpower.

warspite1

No, this was 'covered' too. Apparently the Italians would have been gagging to provide occupation troops for the Germans in Spain.....

Seriously, you can't make this up.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

And the real problem was that the Germans were short on manpower once they took on Russia. Even an untroubled occupation like Southern France required troops to keep an eye on things. Spain and Portugal would have been another drain on manpower.

warspite1

No, this was 'covered' too. Apparently the Italians would have been gagging to provide occupation troops for the Germans in Spain.....

Seriously, you can't make this up.

My sense of the Italian efforts is that the men were not really invested in the war, so I doubt they had the will to hold down the Spanish and Portuguese partisans that would have been a plague. The more ruthless Germans would have been needed, at least some token overseers.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

And the real problem was that the Germans were short on manpower once they took on Russia. Even an untroubled occupation like Southern France required troops to keep an eye on things. Spain and Portugal would have been another drain on manpower.

warspite1

No, this was 'covered' too. Apparently the Italians would have been gagging to provide occupation troops for the Germans in Spain.....

Seriously, you can't make this up.

My sense of the Italian efforts is that the men were not really invested in the war, so I doubt they had the will to hold down the Spanish and Portuguese partisans that would have been a plague. The more ruthless Germans would have been needed, at least some token overseers.

warspite1

One can only imagine the scenario. The Italians invested more in Spain than Germany, the Italians saw Spain as in their sphere of influence. Then all of a sudden the Germans invade Spain and occupy Gibraltar. And the Italians are supposed to be happy with this development AND provide goodness knows how many divisions to pacify the Spanish......Fanciful