Matrix Games Forums

Hello,

Harrybanana put this idea in my head so some credit goes to him (if it is a good idea if it is a bad one all blame on me [:)] ).

I was thinking for WP 2 maybe could be added to WP1 too if not too much work there should be a new hex improvement like beach defense and airfields "the subpen". It should cost some PP take some time to finish and when finished can be put on any port hex. The effect of the subpen should be to give a substantial bonus to submarine defense value when the submarine is in the same hex as the subpen.

The point being that carrier and landbased strikes on subs in ports should not be so devastating and the historical precedent is the German subs stationed in French ports during the war. Something not easily done in the game if the UK have some bombers in Britian.

Food for thought maybe.

/MM

I would go so far as to suggest that subs based in subpens should be immune to airstrikes.

Did such bombing in real life affect subs at all? My recollection is they were pretty safe from enemy action this way.

As things presently stand, the Germans have to base fighters and flak on French ports to discourage this, and that's not quite right. It achieves the same effect, but it is a kludge.

Yes you might well be right. I was going to write something like " that will make them almost invulnerable to airstrikes" but I did not go that far [:)].

/MM

Just make 'em expensive enough that the German won't spam 'em. 50 pps and 120 days, plus maybe throw in repair costs so if they are degraded beyond a certain point they can no longer afford protection.

The German might build 2-3 of them and be good to go. 1-2 in France and maybe another in Norway.

As things presently stand, the Germans have to base fighters and flak on French ports to discourage this, and that's not quite right. It achieves the same effect, but it is a kludge.

Yea, this not only takes a lot of resources (the fighter especially) but also forces them in Bordeau instead of further north![:(]

+1

Does a bunch of AA not work?

Lots of AA works well...and keeping out of range, Bordeaux. Rarely do my subs get attacked.
Especially if you keep a fighter and 6 AA in the port.

BUT the best port is Brest...

Sure, it works, but like I said: it's a kludge. It would be better for there to be an actual subpen to do this job.

I do have a minor objection to the subpens. If uboats are immune to air attacks in protected ports, with the ability to travel 48 hexes before being open to attacks again, wouldn't that simply negate an important part of BoA? The subs being in French ports doesn't, in my view, represent only the time being in actual port, but also the comings and goings through the Bay of Biscay, which was an extremey hazardous journey for the Germans, especially in the latter part of the war when the Allied electronics dramatically improved. Rather than having pens, let the subs be harder to hit while in port originally, and then lessen this protection as the Allied electronics tech-value goes up.

Uxbridge, the important part of the uboat war is the escorts, and your ability to supplement them via carriers and land based airpowers. Bombing uboats directly in port is not really how it is done. It wasn't in real life and even in the game it can only work against a German player who hasn't taken countermeasures. With flak and air based appropriately, you can shut that down. The actual Battle of the Atlantic is fought out in...the Atlantic. Not in a French port.

Uboat pens aren't giving the German player anything he cannot already do. It's just much more elegant as a game solution.

Has there been a change that enables air power to affect the convoy war? If that is so, and air ranges are taken into account, the two battlefields of Biscay and the Atlantic, may just as well blend into one.

See latest patch.

The only mentioning I found was "Fixed air group damage vs subs", which seem to be more about direct attack vs a submarine. There was nothing in the 1.00.11 either, yet I'm sure there has been talk of the Pacific convoy system being exported to Europe. Never mind; when everyone is back from holiday, I'm sure someone will know for sure.

As regards the pens, this far I side with stjeand, the current system works and gives us more to play with. If the chance of hitting a sub in port were lessened, that would be fine too.

Is it a structure only for Axis? Or for Allies too? There is not much room left in the UI...

I've assumed I'm building submarine pens when I beef up the AA.

Just another abstraction, like supply trucks.

I've looked into adding them into the game but the data structure prevents me. It was my 1st game and something I just didn't think about for a subject so complex as this.

But the WP2 engine is coming along nicely. More room for added stuff as now I have a better grasp on what I am doing.

I guess there wont be any more major changes to WP1 thats ok I guess the show must go on.
But for WP 2 maybe?

AA might be a substitute of some kind but I doubt Brest had 6 pts of AA in the real war and as Flaviusx said if it is not too much work it is a more elegant solution.

/MM

Maybe we should start making a WP2 wishlist in general. Since it looks like that is going to happen. I know I have a few items I'd like to see. (Soviet artillery corps, please. That can stack with maneuver formations.)

Soviet tank armies