Matrix Games Forums

I'm having some difficulties with SARH missiles, specifically the Tornado ADV/Sky Flash Super Temp MOD combo. About 50% of the time after firing the missiles "go blind" and disappear after a five second countdown.

As an example: the scenario Med Fury 5. I have British Tornado ADVs firing Sky Flash Super Temp MOD SARH missiles at Soviet Mig-23MLD K models. There is enemy jamming approximately 150 miles away in the form of several Su-24 Fencers. The Tornado's radar stays active the entire time, and I try and keep the Tornados heading toward the Migs. Both platforms are at 36,000 feet. I usually fire at 75% of the weapon's max range, and I changed the Tornados from "crank and drag" to "follow missile straight in", but nothing seems to make a difference.

I understand the principles of SARH missiles, at least in general. Perhaps I'm just missing it in the log box, but when my missiles just disappear I don't see any text stating what happened, so I'm unsure how to improve the performance. I don't think it's the evasive maneuvers by the Migs since the missiles seem to disappear even prior to the Migs maneuvering or changing course/altitude.

Just tested in the latest, and looks like it does work, so doesn't seem like an obvious bug or anything like that.

Ok, a couple of tips.

Make your aircraft's radar is active, and the targets are within the (white)arc. The missile is receiving targeting info from the radar, so it will need to be constantly detected. If your aircraft is maneuvering defensively you may lose it. That's part of the game, so to speak. However, if you choose not to dodge, you can turn off automatic evasion in ROEs.

Firing at max range isn't really optimal for many targets. Instead, go to ROE and Adjust the Sky Flash's automatic firing range a step or two lower. This lessens the chance of the target evading out of range or maneuvering to give itself a greater defensive bonus. This isn't full-proof, but your hit rates should improve.

Weapons sometimes fail as they do in real life. If this is what happened, it'll say so in the log.

Hope this helps!

Mike

This may be happening if the enemy planes are 'notching' your radar.

When you lose contact, and the 'blind countdown' starts, have the enemy turned approximately perpendicular to your course?

I usually find that fighters carrying SARH missiles need micro to be particularly successful. This is especially the case against those Soviet missiles (R-27s IIRC) that can re-acquire their target after the firing aircraft has finished manoeuvring and locked back onto your NATO jet. IIRC, Sparrows and Skyflashes all self-destruct several seconds after they go blind.

Therefore, you may have to turn off automatic evasion to stop if you want to ensure your fighters bore straight in after the missiles. This works well when your missiles blast the hostiles out of the proverbial sky but it does lead them more open to counter fire from the targets themselves and any other red elements. Micromanagement is then required to either reactivate auto evasion or attempt to manoeuvre the aircraft yourself should it be necessary.

Obviously, this tactic works best when you out range the enemy. When they out range you, you have to get more creative or hope that your pilots are having a lucky day.

The presence of jamming seems the obvious answer - have you had any success with the SARHs from closer range?

Enemy jammers will be a problem, you can counter them sometimes with your own jammers or by having AC with SARH approach the target AC from 90* angles and ratchet your WRA back to about 50-60% range.

Firing one missile from one group will cause the bad guys to crank into the engagement zone of the other guys at 90*, so you trap your pray between radars.

Actually 50% is not a bad rate of failure, many early SARH missiles are much worse than that.

B

Shameless plug, but I wrote the Air-to-Air BVR Duel, 1995 Quick Battle for just your kind of situation- to work out the technology-tactics-doctrine relationship of a particular engagement. You can set it up for Tornado ADVs vs MiG-23s and experiment away until you find what works.

I think that AndrewJ is correct- it sounds like these MiG-23s are "notching" you- the Tornado radar is vulnerable to this tactic because of the compromises required for look down, shoot down capability. ECM activity could be making the situation worse still.

I had same problem, but with sparrows.
Not clear the cause.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... =&#4764443

Make sure in the message log settings you have "Weapon damage" "Weapon Endgame Calculations" and "Weapon Logic" ticked (on) in the "Shown on Message Log" column. Then you should get detailed feedback in the log box on what's happening with the weapons.

Gunner98 - thanks for the tip. I'm guessing ratcheting is the issue here.

My plan was basically to save all the AMRAAMs in this scenario for the Mig-29Cs/Su-27s, hence me using the SARH-armed Mirage 2000, F-18A, and Tornado airframes to try and take out the Mig-23MLD Flogger K CAP early on in the scenario so I can get some of the UNPROFOR evac planes out before shit really hits the fan.

For some reason I don't mind losing F-104s, but they just don't have the legs to get to most of Eastern Europe. If only the Starfighters had air-to-air refueling (and the Aspide is underrated!).

Yeah, I have these all enabled - I can see the calculations for all the other weapon endgames, I just don't see any messages at all when the SARHs simply go blind and drop off the screen.

F-104s, but they just don't have the legs to get to most of Eastern Europe.

You will have the option of moving some of them forward later in the scenario (with ammo). You can always park them forward, spend the time to get them ready again and then pop up from a forward base

ORIGINAL: maverick3320

Yeah, I have these all enabled - I can see the calculations for all the other weapon endgames, I just don't see any messages at all when the SARHs simply go blind and drop off the screen.

You wouldnt, if the radar or missile is losing track, this is normal.