Matrix Games Forums

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

From Macbeth spoken by Macbeth written by William Shakespeare

In post #1 is what playing the Germans feels like after the initial assault. But I LOVE challenges & this one is no different. I will be playing this game different than the one I have with Jubjub since in that game I had a great deal of "AD HOC Musings" I have been trying. Should come out interesting at least . Or at least I hope so.

Guctony & I have agreed to a new game with the following rules;

* There will be a 4 turn delay on the AAR. Guctony wanted this for the sake of his other games. I will honor this in the AAR
* No using Airborne Regiment to circumvent Guards limit
* No Para's
* Full use of all Assault HQ's for both sides
* No Early End scenario. (This way Soviets get to play & have fun in 43 & 44)
* Motorization with the following rules;

Motorization(bought by AP) is allowed by each respective side in "white" or "light red" hexes. Hexes that are "red" can not be moved into by "motorized units" bought by AP, hereafter referred to as "motorized unit"

First lets define the Hexes

White Hexes: German (Soviet if active player) occupied/converted hexes
Light Red Hexes: Recently occupied Hexes
Red Hexes: Soviet (German if Soviet player turn) occupied/converted Hexes


Any Motorized unit can move only in white and Light Red Hexes.
Any motorized unit can Attack from white and Light Red Hexes to any hex.
Any Motorized unit can not be used to convert Red hexes but can attack from Light red hex to attack red hexes with enemy units.

**** Guctony note ***** Nominally Motorized Units should be refrained from converting Red hexes to light red hexes. (Only normal Moto and/or PZ units should be able to do so). They should move like Brigades or Regiments without converting hexes around them. (but its hard to achieve I know) It should be normally Hardcoded to Game that motorized units to behave like a brigade/regiment Or if they are division they should move after divided to regiments, ( but its to much of a hassle to do so). ****

* There will be commentary by both sides on game play with major analysis after 20ish turns.

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance

I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance

I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.

Halder subverted hitlers orders to concentrate on the south and instead deployed the army to make Moscow the primary objective. So I’d say Maikop for the oil, but you’re kind of stuck with Halder’s plan to some extent.

ORIGINAL: jubjub

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance

I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.

Halder subverted hitlers orders to concentrate on the south and instead deployed the army to make Moscow the primary objective. So I’d say Maikop for the oil, but you’re kind of stuck with Halder’s plan to some extent.

Thank you for your objective.

So will taking the Oil fields in 42, since no way in hell I think I can get there in 41, will hamper the Soviet Union? Will Germany benefit from taking the oil in this game? I believe it is yes for Germany but not so sure on hampering the Soviet Union. Plus holding those fields for any period of time would be short lived at best. But if enough people vote for the Oil Fields I will go for it.

Leningrad as primary objective.

Moscow and Rostov the secondary objectivse and a more reasonable yet beyond history reaches '41 line! Instead of the A-A line the L-M-R line!

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Leningrad as primary objective.

Moscow and Rostov the secondary objectivse and a more reasonable yet beyond history reaches '41 line! Instead of the A-A line the L-M-R line!

Thank you for your objective.

Curious why Leningrad over lets say, "Moscow"?

I want to see a Southern focus this game (Orel, Kursk, Stalino, maybe Rostov) please. The open terrain should allow you inflict heavier losses on the Soviets and give the panzers maximum operational capability. If all goes well, it also opens up a 42 strike to the Caucasus and Stalingrad. Would suggest Leningrad as 2nd objective. Moscow is too difficult to capture without secure flanks and with the terrain and constant reinforcements the Soviet is usually able to stall out to winter.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance

I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.

As Herr Hitler stated, Moscow was of no importance. (He did change his mind later, but too late) Hoth was diverted toward Leningrad, but Hitler didn't want to take the city, but rather starve it out, walk in, and raze it. Guderian went south to help destroy Southwest Front, and
Adolf was more interested in the economic bounty of Ukraine. He even insisted on smaller pockets. So, Leningrad under siege, (or take it)and taking Ukraine.

Gorky, well, Halder did suggest it at the Orsha conference. To which Guderian's chief of staff exclaimed "This is not the month of May and we are not in France." Some sanity there.

Let's go with the actual German multi-phase plan at least in Army Group Center; pocket and eliminate the Red Army all the way to Moscow and take the city.


Phase I, capture Minsk and Belarus to destroy the forces inside the Western Military District.

Phase II, let us destroy the pre-war Soviet reserves by capturing the area around Smolensk, where they will likely concentrate en mass in or around the Land Bridge.

Phase III, we must head towards the Moscow-Kalinin-Tula triangle and eliminate the remaining main body of the Red Army there; should Moscow be threatened, Guctony will surely make a stand there to defend it with most of what he's got. In addition to all the logistical, economical (production) and administrative/political damage (66 VPs), it will present us with the opportunity (hopefully) to pocket and eliminate the main body of the Soviets.

With that in mind, diverting 4th PzGr and/or 1st PzGr, or only specific corps attached to them, to aid AGC should be an option to take when it presents itself. Maybe 1st PzGr should swing from the south from Dnepropetrovsk to Kharkov-Kursk-Bryansk.

No major diversions from this strategic goal should happen; i.e. let's not divert parts of 3rd PzGr to 4th PzGr to assist in taking Leningrad, and by the time they're in a position to do something about it we divert them back to 3rd PzGr in the center for seizing Moscow.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Leningrad as primary objective.

Moscow and Rostov the secondary objectivse and a more reasonable yet beyond history reaches '41 line! Instead of the A-A line the L-M-R line!

Thank you for your objective.

Curious why Leningrad over lets say, "Moscow"?

Narrative wise?

Close the Baltic entirely, link up with Finnish forces, maybe impress Sweden further as it will be entirely surrounded by German lands.

Plus it will be different from the game vs JJ.

Feldmarshall HLYA,

Pay no heed to these incompetent old guard generals. They do not understand the economic basis of modern war, and consequently attempt to misguide your strategy and lead Germany into ruin. Remember, these aristocratic Prussian generals are the same people who lost the First World War.

The Fuehrer's critics mistakenly caricature his economic focus as a focus on resources, oil, the grains of Ukraine, and armaments. But no, this misunderstands and fails to appreicate the Fuehrer's world-historical genius. What is economics? Economics is nothing but logistics. Economics is the process whereby people acquire goods and consume them. And that is the very essence of logistics - the acquisition of military goods by the army and their consumption. Logistics are directly dependent on railyards, pushing freight.

Among German Field Marshalls, only you fully grasp the genius of the Fuehrer's economic understanding. Consequently, the Fuehrer has relieved Halder of command and put you in charge of the entirety of Operation Barbarossa, and the broader long term War in the East (2).

The Fuehrer has developed a top secret RAILYARD MAP of the Soviet Union, which he now presents to you for your consideration. The green numbers on the map denote railyard size:



The Fuehrer will soon also send a private message to Field Marshall HLYA with some additional strategic details, which HLYA may disclose at the time and place of his choosing, so as not to give away too much advantage to any NKVD spies that may be lurking. Furthermore, HLYA has been granted blanket authority to disclose certain disinformation to mislead the Bolshevists.

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I want to see a Southern focus this game (Orel, Kursk, Stalino, maybe Rostov) please. The open terrain should allow you inflict heavier losses on the Soviets and give the panzers maximum operational capability. If all goes well, it also opens up a 42 strike to the Caucasus and Stalingrad. Would suggest Leningrad as 2nd objective. Moscow is too difficult to capture without secure flanks and with the terrain and constant reinforcements the Soviet is usually able to stall out to winter.

Thank you for your objective.

Really starting to look like a Southern thrust

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance

I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.

As Herr Hitler stated, Moscow was of no importance. (He did change his mind later, but too late) Hoth was diverted toward Leningrad, but Hitler didn't want to take the city, but rather starve it out, walk in, and raze it. Guderian went south to help destroy Southwest Front, and
Adolf was more interested in the economic bounty of Ukraine. He even insisted on smaller pockets. So, Leningrad under siege, (or take it)and taking Ukraine.

Gorky, well, Halder did suggest it at the Orsha conference. To which Guderian's chief of staff exclaimed "This is not the month of May and we are not in France." Some sanity there.

Thank you for your objective.

Another Leningrad and Southern objective.

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Let's go with the actual German multi-phase plan at least in Army Group Center; pocket and eliminate the Red Army all the way to Moscow and take the city.


Phase I, capture Minsk and Belarus to destroy the forces inside the Western Military District.

Phase II, let us destroy the pre-war Soviet reserves by capturing the area around Smolensk, where they will likely concentrate en mass in or around the Land Bridge.

Phase III, we must head towards the Moscow-Kalinin-Tula triangle and eliminate the remaining main body of the Red Army there; should Moscow be threatened, Guctony will surely make a stand there to defend it with most of what he's got. In addition to all the logistical, economical (production) and administrative/political damage (66 VPs), it will present us with the opportunity (hopefully) to pocket and eliminate the main body of the Soviets.

With that in mind, diverting 4th PzGr and/or 1st PzGr, or only specific corps attached to them, to aid AGC should be an option to take when it presents itself. Maybe 1st PzGr should swing from the south from Dnepropetrovsk to Kharkov-Kursk-Bryansk.

No major diversions from this strategic goal should happen; i.e. let's not divert parts of 3rd PzGr to 4th PzGr to assist in taking Leningrad, and by the time they're in a position to do something about it we divert them back to 3rd PzGr in the center for seizing Moscow.

Thank you for your objective.

Looks like a vote for center

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Leningrad as primary objective.

Moscow and Rostov the secondary objectivse and a more reasonable yet beyond history reaches '41 line! Instead of the A-A line the L-M-R line!

Thank you for your objective.

Curious why Leningrad over lets say, "Moscow"?

Narrative wise?

Close the Baltic entirely, link up with Finnish forces, maybe impress Sweden further as it will be entirely surrounded by German lands.

Plus it will be different from the game vs JJ.

Makes sense

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

Feldmarshall HLYA,

Pay no heed to these incompetent old guard generals. They do not understand the economic basis of modern war, and consequently attempt to misguide your strategy and lead Germany into ruin. Remember, these aristocratic Prussian generals are the same people who lost the First World War.

The Fuehrer's critics mistakenly caricature his economic focus as a focus on resources, oil, the grains of Ukraine, and armaments. But no, this misunderstands and fails to appreicate the Fuehrer's world-historical genius. What is economics? Economics is nothing but logistics. Economics is the process whereby people acquire goods and consume them. And that is the very essence of logistics - the acquisition of military goods by the army and their consumption. Logistics are directly dependent on railyards, pushing freight.

Among German Field Marshalls, only you fully grasp the genius of the Fuehrer's economic understanding. Consequently, the Fuehrer has relieved Halder of command and put you in charge of the entirety of Operation Barbarossa, and the broader long term War in the East (2).

The Fuehrer has developed a top secret RAILYARD MAP of the Soviet Union, which he now presents to you for your consideration. The green numbers on the map denote railyard size:



The Fuehrer will soon also send a private message to Field Marshall HLYA with some additional strategic details, which HLYA may disclose at the time and place of his choosing, so as not to give away too much advantage to any NKVD spies that may be lurking. Furthermore, HLYA has been granted blanket authority to disclose certain disinformation to mislead the Bolshevists.

Holy smokes!!! That is a very large map and very well done with lots of great information! Thank you for sharing that!!!!!!!

I will read the emails after all my morning conference call this morning. Thank you again.

The Marcks Plan Dec 1940




There should be a Southern drive it would be a diversionary attack during 1941

ORIGINAL: tm1

The Marcks Plan Dec 1940




There should be a Southern drive it would be a diversionary attack during 1941

You are setting Moscow as the objective?