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Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:06 pm
by Zemke
I have looked at several H vs H AARs, trying to find the one with the German player adjacent to Moscow in Dec 1941 and Leningrad isolated? Where is that unicorn?
I mean seriously, there should be some, right?
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:15 pm
by Zemke
This should be moved to the AAR section, which is where I thought I posted it, but guess not.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:42 am
by Joel Billings
What I have seen reports of are cases of Soviet players surrendering in the first dozen turns where they have felt their position was untenable.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:13 am
by GibsonPete
I am with you. I have heard of this 'Unicorn' but have never seen it. I wonder if it is a fairy tale. Something told to scare certain fans.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:10 pm
by carlkay58
Both HLYA and Tyronec did it against me in 41 during the playtesting (the first two games I ever played as the Soviets vs humans). I have seen several where Leningrad is isolated or falls in 41 or early 42. So many people have written off Leningrad pushes because of the bad terrain that an alert Axis player could surprise the Soviet player with a quick redirection of panzer forces. If the Axis can burst through to the Luga River line then the 10 hex limit will not allow Soviet reinforcements near Leningrad and it will take some time to move them into defensive positions.
The Axis player must do some misdirection OR put enough pressure on the Soviets in the Leningrad/Moscow/Ukraine axis that force the Soviets to have to defend everywhere. With this pressure the Soviets will have to make some decisions about where to thin the defenses. Currently the Soviet defenders appear to decide that the southern flank will be defended by supply limitations alone. It will not. If the Axis player knows their logistic system well enough you can supply a thrust out to Stalingrad in 41 without more than small supply problems. Thrusts that deep in 41 will severely damage the Soviets for 42 and later. The hit in the replacement rates alone will damage the Soviets in the long run.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:24 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
ORIGINAL: carlkay58
Both HLYA and Tyronec did it against me in 41 during the playtesting (the first two games I ever played as the Soviets vs humans). I have seen several where Leningrad is isolated or falls in 41 or early 42. So many people have written off Leningrad pushes because of the bad terrain that an alert Axis player could surprise the Soviet player with a quick redirection of panzer forces. If the Axis can burst through to the Luga River line then the 10 hex limit will not allow Soviet reinforcements near Leningrad and it will take some time to move them into defensive positions.
The Axis player must do some misdirection OR put enough pressure on the Soviets in the Leningrad/Moscow/Ukraine axis that force the Soviets to have to defend everywhere. With this pressure the Soviets will have to make some decisions about where to thin the defenses. Currently the Soviet defenders appear to decide that the southern flank will be defended by supply limitations alone. It will not. If the Axis player knows their logistic system well enough you can supply a thrust out to Stalingrad in 41 without more than small supply problems. Thrusts that deep in 41 will severely damage the Soviets for 42 and later. The hit in the replacement rates alone will damage the Soviets in the long run.
The South is very doable for the Germans in 41. Carlkay58 is correct 100% there. Tyronec is a master at the South offense by the way. I am going to try and match Tyronec in my 2nd game against Guctony in the South but will be a first for me.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:40 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
ORIGINAL: Zemke
I have looked at several H vs H AARs, trying to find the one with the German player adjacent to Moscow in Dec 1941 and Leningrad isolated? Where is that unicorn?
I mean seriously, there should be some, right?
Was Turn 14 in a game in the BETA from a Soviet perspective against me as Germany.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:11 pm
by loki100
ORIGINAL: Zemke
I have looked at several H vs H AARs, trying to find the one with the German player adjacent to Moscow in Dec 1941 and Leningrad isolated? Where is that unicorn?
I mean seriously, there should be some, right?
oddly this public AAR shows the Axis take Leningrad and threaten Moscow -
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4953967
even better its stickied so easy to find
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:58 pm
by Zemke
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: Zemke
I have looked at several H vs H AARs, trying to find the one with the German player adjacent to Moscow in Dec 1941 and Leningrad isolated? Where is that unicorn?
I mean seriously, there should be some, right?
oddly this public AAR shows the Axis take Leningrad and threaten Moscow -
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4953967
even better its stickied so easy to find
Is that AR a Human vs Human game? It looks like an AI game.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:11 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
ORIGINAL: Zemke
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: Zemke
I have looked at several H vs H AARs, trying to find the one with the German player adjacent to Moscow in Dec 1941 and Leningrad isolated? Where is that unicorn?
I mean seriously, there should be some, right?
oddly this public AAR shows the Axis take Leningrad and threaten Moscow -
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4953967
even better its stickied so easy to find
Is that AR a Human vs Human game? It looks like an AI game.
It is a human vs human. The Soviet perspective is here
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4953743 Bobo vs Gloriousruse
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:17 am
by loki100
ORIGINAL: Zemke
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: Zemke
I have looked at several H vs H AARs, trying to find the one with the German player adjacent to Moscow in Dec 1941 and Leningrad isolated? Where is that unicorn?
I mean seriously, there should be some, right?
oddly this public AAR shows the Axis take Leningrad and threaten Moscow -
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4953967
even better its stickied so easy to find
Is that AR a Human vs Human game? It looks like an AI game.
yep HtH, fairly clearly stated in the second sentence of the first post?
ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
...
My name is Robert and with
Tim we are going to give you an insight into
a Gary Grisby's War in the East 2 multiplayer game. As I have more experience with the War in the East series, I will play the bad guys.
.....
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:29 am
by karonagames
Before I stopped playing the game, I was looking at data trying to explain why the Axis are having such a tough time getting anywhere close to the December 1941 historical front line. I looked at WITE1 saves for games against the AI where I had achieved Historical Results, and compared them to saves for WITE2 also against the AI where I had fallen short of the historical front line.
I compared the relative performance of German Infantry divisions between WITE1 and 2 and was gobsmacked when I found that between turn 1 and 24, German Infantry divisions made 32% fewer attacks in WITE2 compared to WITE1. Obviously I did not deliberately make 32% fewer attacks- it must be because the combination of factors, such as Logistics,delay, weather, map changes, CPP buildup requiring units to be out of the front line etc., combining to deny the axis the same attacking tempo in WITE2 that can be achieved in WITE1.
I would be interested to know if anyone else has done similar comparisons.
I too doubt that the unicorn will seen in the foreseeable future in AARs of equally skiiled and expereinced opponents.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:05 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
ORIGINAL: karonagames
I too doubt that the unicorn will seen in the foreseeable future in AARs of equally skiiled and expereinced opponents.
Germans are pretty capable of doing this already. You just need to get the dance steps correctly orchestrated to do so, even against equally skilled Soviets. And currently many Germans are in the process of learning to "dance". I know that I now have a great deal more confidence in the Germans achieving their goals then when I first started the recent AAR. Before I chalked up my success based on inexperienced play on both sides. Now I believe what Joel Billings said is true. Thus I am learning & improving my dance.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:06 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: karonagames
I too doubt that the unicorn will seen in the foreseeable future in AARs of equally skiiled and expereinced opponents.
Germans are pretty capable of doing this already. You just need to get the dance steps correctly orchestrated to do so, even against equally skilled Soviets. And currently many Germans are in the process of learning to "dance". I know that I now have a great deal more confidence in the Germans achieving their goals then when I first started the recent AAR. Before I chalked up my success based on inexperienced play on both sides. Now I believe what Joel Billings said is true. Thus I am learning & improving my dance.
At least I hope I am improving
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:53 pm
by Zemke
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: Zemke
Is that AR a Human vs Human game? It looks like an AI game.
yep HtH, fairly clearly stated in the second sentence of the first post?
ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
...
My name is Robert and with
Tim we are going to give you an insight into
a Gary Grisby's War in the East 2 multiplayer game. As I have more experience with the War in the East series, I will play the bad guys.
.....
I guess the Unicorn has been spotted, but rarely.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:36 pm
by Zemke
And studying the referenced AAR, BoBo only got within 6 hexes or 60 miles from Moscow, so the Germans did not meet the historical German limit of advance by Dec 6 1941. BoBo also did not meet the German historical advance near Leningrad. Tikhvin fell on 8 Nov 1941 to the 8th Pz Div in -20 below zero weather!! Bobo is 5-6 hexes from Tikhvin.
I guess the search for the Unicorn still goes on!
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:38 pm
by GloriousRuse
He also TOOK Leningrad, and opted not to launch Taifun for all the same reasons we say Taifun was a bad idea. And took Tula, as well as scoring super early bonuses on the bulk of the cities in the center steppes.
So if the Unicorn is a perfect hex by her day by day repeat of history, I think we can say that you're unlikely to see it. If the Unicorn is the Germans having succes in AGC and AGN, he most certainly qualified, much to my chagrin.
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:53 pm
by DeletedUser1769703214
ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse
He also TOOK Leningrad, and opted not to launch Taifun for all the same reasons we say Taifun was a bad idea. And took Tula, as well as scoring super early bonuses on the bulk of the cities in the center steppes.
So if the Unicorn is a perfect hex by her day by day repeat of history, I think we can say that you're unlikely to see it. If the Unicorn is the Germans having succes in AGC and AGN, he most certainly qualified, much to my chagrin.
Ultimately, in the end Logistics killed the Germans
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:10 am
by Kursk1943
...and a few Soviets! [:D]
RE: Anyone seen the Unicorn?
Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:10 am
by DeletedUser1769703214
ORIGINAL: Kursk1943
...and a few Soviets! [:D]
True
.