Matrix Games Forums

1941-45 campaign (no early end scenario)

Enhanced TB control On
AI Air Assist off
Full Fog of War
Full Movement FOW

House Rules:
No paratrooper drops
No naval invasions west of Sevastopol after it's been captured
No air missions with more than 200 sorties in a flight in '41
No removing SU's from ZOC'd units and HQ's
No motorization for the first 5 turns, after that only motorization for moving in friendly territory unless we discuss and decide that being more lenient would be good for balance



Early in the morning of June 22, 1941, the jubjubite hordes slithered - (illegally!) - across the frontier and into Soviet territory. Thus began the great War in the East, a massive invasion of the Soviet Union by a host of more than 3 million Germans and their Axis Allies. As soon as they arrived in Soviet territory they immediately began doing all manner of unspeakable and horrible things, from routing units to bombing airfields to making babies cry to driving their Panzers back and forth on our roads, thus creating potholes that have still not been repaired to this day. And so we vowed that the jubjubite hordes would be expelled from our lands and made to pay for the cost of repairing the potholes they created.

How could you do this to me, jubjub? We had such a good non-aggression pact going. You were getting resources. We were getting not invaded. And were also getting the Baltic States and Eastern Poland and Bessarabia... And now you had to go and ruin it all. I'm not really angry, I'm just disappointed. [:(]


The jubjubites destroyed more than 4000 brave Soviet planes and have dispensed with 1,301 Soviet pilots:





North:



Center:



South:



350,000 Soviets have already been lost.



According to the Commander's report, 520,000 Soviet troops with 6,600 guns and 3,700 AFVs are isolated.



Accordingly, after Stalin was eventually reached at his dacha, he ordered a massive and well-coordinated counterattack. The Red Army would cut through the German lines, liberate Minsk and free the encircled Soviet troops in the Bialystok pocket, and then be in Berlin in less than a year's time. I guess since that is the case, if you want you can stop reading this AAR right now, because the war has been as good as won already.

Truth be told, we have already won some great victories. For example, in this battle we already destroyed 41 German AFVs with our mighty unbeatable T-26s. And those were not Czech tanks, they were mostly Panzer IIIs and some Panzer IVs, with a few Panzer IIs thrown in at no extra cost for a package deal.



Another great victory here. The Germans thought they could just waltz in and destroy our anti-tank guns with light infantry, apparently on the theory that anti-tank guns are used against tanks, and that infantry are not tanks. Well... nope...



The Germans keep trying to tell us that Manstein is some sort of great general. But he can't even beat Morozov, and even Soviets will admit that Morozov is a horrible general. So Manstein must be pretty bad. You should relieve Manstein of command, jubjub. Just some friendly advice. Please? Pretty please?

hasties with a regiment vs a Division is risky business unless that Division has been retreated.

Uncle Joe is very optimistic and or over confident if he believes The Comrades will be in Berlin in less than 12 months.

Good luck to both players hopefully its a Titanic struggle going down to the wire.

ORIGINAL: tm1

Uncle Joe is very optimistic and or over confident if he believes The Comrades will be in Berlin in less than 12 months.

Good luck to both players hopefully its a Titanic struggle going down to the wire.

Well, that's just Joe being Joe, making a conservative estimate because he is a careful guy. That's what paranoia is, after all, it's all about being careful and making conservative estimates. In truth, The Comrades will surely be hoisting the Red Banner over the Reichstag in time to be home for Christmas in 5-6 months or so.

So, I am not quite sure how to comply with this house rule...

No air missions with more than 200 sorties in a flight in '41

Is there any simple way to set this?



From what I can see I can only really set "Strike num." But that just determines (I think) the number of missions that get flown, but doesn't necessarily limit the number of planes per attack.

There is a Min AC and a Req AC setting, but the problem is there is no Max AC setting. If there were, then I think I could simply set Max AC to 200 and strike number to 1 for example. However, even if I could do that, if e.g. the air AI could fly 4 missions of 50 planes each but couldn't fly 200 planes all in a single attack for some reason, then I would want it to do that with 4 different missions on 4 different days as opposed to doing one bombing mission on one day with considerably less than 200 planes.

Anyone know if there is some way to set this up that I am not seeing? I normally prefer not to excessively micromanage the air, so maybe I am missing something and there is some way to actually do this.

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

So, I am not quite sure how to comply with this house rule...

No air missions with more than 200 sorties in a flight in '41

Is there any simple way to set this?



From what I can see I can only really set "Strike num." But that just determines (I think) the number of missions that get flown, but doesn't necessarily limit the number of planes per attack.

There is a Min AC and a Req AC setting, but the problem is there is no Max AC setting. If there were, then I think I could simply set Max AC to 200 and strike number to 1 for example. However, even if I could do that, if e.g. the air AI could fly 4 missions of 50 planes each but couldn't fly 200 planes all in a single attack for some reason, then I would want it to do that with 4 different missions on 4 different days as opposed to doing one bombing mission on one day with considerably less than 200 planes.

Anyone know if there is some way to set this up that I am not seeing? I normally prefer not to excessively micromanage the air, so maybe I am missing something and there is some way to actually do this.

If you do auto and it goes over the limit, that's fine. There is a way to do it by setting the requested AC to 200 or less, but I don't mind using auto. I don't think (?) that the AI typically orders such large air strikes anyway.

I'm mainly trying to dispense of the tactic I do where I specifically order 200/200 or 200/100 etc. in the req AC field. I've talked about this elsewhere, but flying such large, well escorted sorties seems unrealistic and has very little counterplay.

(thank you jubjub regarding the air - I will use auto settings and if anything seems wrong to you, you can let me know and I can adjust settings if need be for subsequent turns)



Conscientious STAVKA staff officers have compiled the following report, listing the known locations of German mobile units, and have delivered it to the desk of Marshall Zhukov.



Zhukov quickly realized that jubjub had sent part of Panzergruppe 2 SOUTH, at least a corps or so. Shamelessly! Treacherously! Ahistorically!

The report was publicized to the people and jubjub was forcefully and justifiably denounced for his nefarious tricks. World opinion instantly turned against jubjub and the United States, Great Britain, and other world powers sided with the Soviets and pledged that they would send lend lease in support of our righteous cause as a result of widespread global public outrage at jubjub's actions with regards to Panzergruppe 2. Even a few Germans were dismayed and pledged to join our ranks as a result, and Heinz Guderian was said to be distraught that his armored force had been split up.

It feels subjectively like something may have changed that makes shatters happen more in the combat model. A lot of these are fortified regions, but all the ones with more than 1169 men are actual units of various kinds, so that is 15 shatters:



Look for example at the 3 attacks of the jubjubite assault seizing Daugavpils from mother Russia (wait, I mean Latvia):

10th Airborne brigade, shattered...



201st Airborne brigade, shattered...



83rd NKVD border guards, shattered...



And these are not just any old units shattering, they are my VERY BEST and most useful units, the NKVD border guards and the Airborne brigades.

Yes, those would shatter sometimes previously, but I feel like they would mostly rout. If they rout, then they can fight again, whereas if they shatter then I don't have units on the map to even suicidally slow down the German advance. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of routs also, but it seems like relatively more shatters than usual. And of the units that routed, a lot seem to be depleted as compared to unready.

I also have 19 depleted on-map un-isolated units (counters, not support units), as compared to 57 unready (of course, for the unready units, a lot of those were not even in combat but simply start off unready well behind the front). Depleted units can't defend anything any more than shattered ones at least for the next turn, they will just displace. I feel like the depleted might be a bit higher also, though I am less sure about that than the shatters.

As a result, although I would like to defend forward at least somewhat, I may not have much choice but to retreat en masse. We will see.

One good piece of news, however, is that no Soviet generals were killed on turn 1. So at least we don't have to deal with Rokossovsky dead on turn 1 etc.

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

And these are not just any old units shattering, they are my VERY BEST and most useful units, the NKVD border guards and the Airborne brigades.

Yes, those would shatter sometimes previously, but I feel like they would mostly rout. If they rout, then they can fight again, whereas if they shatter then I don't have units on the map to even suicidally slow down the German advance. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of routs also, but it seems like relatively more shatters than usual. And of the units that routed, a lot seem to be depleted as compared to unready.

I also have 19 depleted on-map un-isolated units (counters, not support units), as compared to 57 unready (of course, for the unready units, a lot of those were not even in combat but simply start off unready well behind the front). Depleted units can't defend anything any more than shattered ones at least for the next turn, they will just displace. I feel like the depleted might be a bit higher also, though I am less sure about that than the shatters.

As a result, although I would like to defend forward at least somewhat, I may not have much choice but to retreat en masse. We will see.

One good piece of news, however, is that no Soviet generals were killed on turn 1. So at least we don't have to deal with Rokossovsky dead on turn 1 etc.

In WITE2 units can shatter pretty easily the first couple of turns if the RNG is not kind to the Soviets. You must not have prayed enough for good rolls Can also shatter if attacked correctly or the Soviets don't husband their units properly later.

The Soviet General massacre comes on turn 2 if done correctly. If not, then consider yourself lucky

Turn 1 Soviet Air Phase

And thus began the great mass suicide of the Soviet level bombers

Air missions set up and ready to go:







I will probably switch over to AI air assist a bit later, but for the initial turns if you want to do mass bombing like this you pretty much have to move around the planes to airfields/air groups etc manually. So, I put all my level bombers under the Kharkov Air Command (it has an air skill 5 leader, as compared to Long Range Air Command which is 4 skill). All Fighters and ground support tactical bombers are under the Leningrad Air Command (6 skill), which is set to provide air support for ALL fronts and is spread around the map. The main reason to do that is that it is easier to manage, but the slightly higher skill of the Leningrad Air Command hopefully also provides a small benefit. Meanwhile all transport and recon planes are under the Northwest Air Command.

Here is a pretty representative example of the damage done by a typical bombing mission:



In total, 939 Soviet level bombers were lost during the Soviet air phase. Most were shot down by German fighters. This may sound like a lot of lost bombers, but the last time I did this on turn 1 in my "southern strategy" AAR against Bread, I lost 838 bombers, basically all to flak and operational losses. So it seems that either it doesn't make much difference to overall Soviet losses if German fighters intercept the Soviet bombers, or else the patch lowered flak and operational losses a lot.



In total, the bomb killed 676 German troops, 5 guns, and 6 men. Not a lot - each destroyed bomber killed on average less than a single German troop.



However, last time I did this Bread later said that the movement points of his Panzers were low after the bombing. Hopefully that is also the case here and the German Panzers will have low movement points as a result of the bombing. The reason to do this is basically only to lower German MP in the initial turns so they cannot seize as much ground as quickly and are less dangerous threats.

This may or may not be the best use of Soviet level bombers, but I don't really know of a better use for them personally.

There are also definite benefits to losing many level bombers early on. It frees up airfield capacity. You might say "but you can build more airfields." And that is true, but I don't want my construction crews constructing airfields that may be captured by the Germans, especially if the alternative is that they can construct forts for troops on the ground instead.

Another benefit is that later on we won't have to supply them and so we will save trucks.

Soviet Turn 1 (partial)

In Latvia, STAVKA ordered immediate counterattacks to repulse the invaders back across the Dvina river. Orders were to gather troops along the Dvina and secure the river, retake Daugavpils and Riga, and then after no more than a month or so of preparation time, the Red Army would surely be ready to launch the war-winning offensive to drive the invaders back into East Prussia.

Ivan Bezugly's 9th Airborne Brigade led the charge to liberate Daugavipls. Although the initial assault ran into tough resistance (250,000 combat value on the 3rd Motorized division, to be precise) and this attack changed the airborne brigade from being "ready" to "depleted," in a few days another offensive will be launched which will surely succeed.





Meanwhile at Riga, the 10th Rifle Division launched its own counteroffensive, and reached the outskirts of Riga. Somewhat surprisingly, the Germans had left Riga undefended, with seemingly only the 1st Panzer division to the north (those are the 3 regiments up there). Thus, in total, only two German mobile divisions had made it across the Dvina, the 1st Panzer and 3rd Motorized. And surely no additional units would ever make it across again. The lack of any more German divisions across the Dvina demonstrates that the German War Machine is already collapsing, unable to sustain its initial surprise offensive.



Riga would already have been liberated, but reports from the field commander of the 10th Rifle division claimed lack of a "zone of control" to "flip the hex," which puzzled Zhukov and will naturally prompt an NKVD investigation. So Riga is expected to also be liberated within another day or two, once the 10th can summon some "movement points."


Meanwhile in the south, efforts were underway to secure the rescue of troops south of the Lvov-Proskurov rail line from potential encirclement. A front line first must be stabilized, but then a counteroffensive must be launched to re-take Lvov, a counteroffensive which will surely prove a resounding success.

However, this brings us to some game mechanics issues. The new patch made it so that you can't send troops to reserve or disband them unless they are more than 8 hexes from the enemy. This is a good change, since it definitely seems more realistic, and the ability to rescue troops from potential pockets ought to be limited by rail capacity. This does also raise the old WITE1 issue of a large ahistorical Lvov pocket being (maybe) too easy to do now. Historically Proskurov was taken on July 8 and Rovno, whereas jubjub took it on the first turn. However, the issue I want to highlight is more a matter of the mechanics and UI.

This is problematic because the UI does not indicate to the player how rail capacity will change if the player moves units, until the player actually moves the units - and once a unit is moved by rail, the moves cannot be undone unless you reload a previous save.

STAVKA identified the following units as ones that we would like to evacuate by rail:

First, the division circled in blue has already been moved by rail.

Second, there are two other mountain divisions circled in black, which, although they could potentially get out simply by walking, might not, so it would be preferable to rail them away.

Third, there is the NKVD security unit highlighted in yellow.

Fourth, there is the NKVD security unit circled in red.

All the other units in the potential pocket either are mech units with enough MP to retreat to (relative) safety, or else are units that are unable to board rails in the first place and lack anything like the MP to get out (e.g. the two mountain units in the far west which are ZOC locked), as well as that 1=1 infantry division just to the right of them which is unready and lacks the ability to get on a train at all, even though it is on a rail track (I think due to its unready state).

Now, here is the issue with UI/mechanics. For example, this NKVD border guard unit can move to this hex, at which point it can board a train:



And once it does that, it the following movement by rail available to it. Actually this turns out to not be the very best example, but I will proceed with it anyway because I reloaded already to take screenshots and show and explain:



So I went back and moved these 3 mountain units by rail to here:



The problem is that then changes the SMP cost to move other units, within the middle of the turn, in a very non-transparent way. The game does some hidden calculation regarding the rail use and railyard capacity in the area to determine the SMP cost of moving along a given track, but the player has no way from the UI to predict how much the SMP cost of moving along a given rail track will change after you move other units. Whereas without having moved the 3 mountain units already by rail the NKVD unit could get to the hex north-east of Yarmolnitsy, now it can't get there due to the SMP costs changing (if I did not have one of the mountain divisions already moved, it could probably get a bit further, but I had already saved that so can't show it without it):



In this case, apparently the effect is actually pretty small (the NKVD unit can get only 1-2 hexes less far, I had incorrectly assumed it could get another 10-20 hexes or so further at least), and for that reason it was not the best example, but I have seen lots of other cases where the effect is a lot larger.

I will try to find a better example to illustrate... I don't actually want to move this tank division to Vinnitsa, but suppose I did. Currently I would have 67 SMP left if I moved it by rail to Vinnitsa, and it costs 55 SMP to unload it, so I could unload it there:



Now I will move the other two mountain divisions again. After doing that, actually to my surprise the SMP cost of the tank to Vinnytsia was unchanged (lol) - that just goes to show how it is not really possible for the player to predict in any transparent way. I think the reason why it was unchanged is I didn't move the mountain divisions very far by rail yet, and in particular did not move them past the part where the northern and southern rail lines merge north of Brichany. Up until Brichany there are two different rail lines the units can take. So what if I move the mountain units to Kiev? In this case the rail movement cost for the tank does change, now the tank would only have 53 SMP left by the time it gets to Vinnitsa, which is no longer enough to unload:



This is meant to represent the fact that rail capacity is limited, which is definitely better than being able to simply send everything to reserve and avoid anything being pocketed, but the way it works is unrealistic and non-transparent, because the units here are moving sequentially, whereas in reality they would be moving simultaneously. In the game, whichever unit you move last will end up having a higher rail movement cost, and ALL of the effects will fall upon that last division, but you have no idea what that rail cost will be until you move the other units, because the UI gives no indication anywhere. In reality, with divisions moving simultaneously, the effects would be more spread out across multiple divisions trying to evacuate from the salient by rail.

It is also problematic because the cut-off for things like being able to unload a unit (55 MP in this case) is arbitrary, but having 53 MP and not unloading can mean a rout in the next turn, whereas with 57 MP and unloading might mean that Germany is delayed in taking Vinnitsa. And the difference between that would only be moving the mountain divisions a few hexes less by rail. And those mountain divisions don't actually need to move all the way to Kiev, they just need to go far enough that they won't be overrun the very next turn. Again, I don't actually want to move the tank division to Vinnitsa, but there are other similar situations that arise, so I hope this explains the problem understandably.

Most of the time this is a small issue since you are not normally needing to rail units all around the map and unload them at the right railyards efficiently (making sure you have enough SMP to be able to unload them in the same turn), but it is a major part of the first few Soviet turns. I could finish my first turn here a lot faster, the only thing stopping me is basically the fact that I can't see which units can actually move where, in particular for the rail movement costs which change mid turn with no way for the player to see or calculate in the UI. The same issues apply, in particular, for trying to figure out how many divisions can get unloaded at important railyards such as Smolensk.

Here's another interesting little snippet I just found. This tank division can apparently load on to a train (with plenty of SMP left to move away), despite the fact that it is unready, whereas the unready infantry division cannot.



That tank only has 7 movement points, so it definitely could not get away just by ordinary movement. Because it had so few MP, I had assumed earlier that it must be a retreated unit that had lost a battle, but it actually has not gotten into a battle (0 wins, 0 losses). But that tank division has 19 T-34s, better make sure it gets away on rails so that those don't fall into the wrong hands. Also the trucks, although it is only 34 trucks, apparently:



Whereas this infantry division, that I mentioned earlier, cannot get onto a train and evacuate:



I think the reason for this is that the infantry division was in a battle whereas the tank division was not, so it is not just a matter of being ready or unready as to whether you can load onto a train or not, having been in a battle makes a difference.

The mystery of why the infantry division can't board the train but the tank can has been solved, with a little help from jubjub!

The infantry division was apparently routed by Germany on turn 1. I didn't realize that it was routed because it appears just to be unready to me. However, it seems to have recovered from the rout at the start of my turn. But that still means it has 0 MP due to having routed, and that is why it can't get on the train. Whereas if it had only retreated and not routed, it should still have at least some SMP, and would be able to board a train at least if its amount of SMP were high enough to be able to board at the given location.

Meanwhile at Riga, the 10th Rifle Division launched its own counteroffensive, and reached the outskirts of Riga. Somewhat surprisingly, the Germans had left Riga undefended, with seemingly only the 1st Panzer division to the north (those are the 3 regiments up there). Thus, in total, only two German mobile divisions had made it across the Dvina, the 1st Panzer and 3rd Motorized. And surely no additional units would ever make it across again. The lack of any more German divisions across the Dvina demonstrates that the German War Machine is already collapsing, unable to sustain its initial surprise offensive.

A refused left flank. Watch out for the Companion Cavalry, ala Gaugamela.

Seriously, he is missing out on the free Baltic Rail Conversion if he has swung a Pz Corps to the south. Possibly, also the T1 bonus movement in the Baltic.

This may or may not be the best use of Soviet level bombers, but I don't really know of a better use for them personally.

I instinctively think you should husband them to aid in naval patrols to come. Protecting your own sea lanes when required, and denying or delaying Axis seaborne supply.

They seem almost pointless (at killing) against ground targets. Best left to TACB, although there may be some advantage in massing disruption via repeated ground attack missions on a hex.

I’d save the DB3s for long range naval patrol missions out of the Caucus. Beef up port airbases on the eastern Black Sea you know you’ll hold.

ORIGINAL: Seminole

This may or may not be the best use of Soviet level bombers, but I don't really know of a better use for them personally.

I instinctively think you should husband them to aid in naval patrols to come. Protecting your own sea lanes when required, and denying or delaying Axis seaborne supply.

They seem almost pointless (at killing) against ground targets. Best left to TACB, although there may be some advantage in massing disruption via repeated ground attack missions on a hex.

I’d save the DB3s for long range naval patrol missions out of the Caucus. Beef up port airbases on the eastern Black Sea you know you’ll hold.

Quite honestly, it sounds like there may be something to that. For what it is worth though, despite the mass suicide, I still have 3,635 level bombers. The last time, I still had some left that could have been used for naval interdiction after also doing a lot of bombing over the first turns. Although I imagine Soviet bombers can be shot down doing naval interdiction just as easily as when they are bombing ground units, and it can be hard to get fighter escorts with range (not that I have that now either, mind you).

A couple more snippets from the FRONT. Specifically, the Southwestern Front.

The encircled 10th Tank division made a heroic counterattack near Brody and destroyed 22 Fascist Panzers of the 1/10 Panzer division. A great victory!



A powerful relief force is massing in the rear, and the encircled troops will soon be broken out, and Lvov subsequently liberated.

Meanwhile a bit further to the east of Brody, 2/11th Panzer was counterattacked no less than four separate times by pocketed armored and mechanized forces. Unfortunately, this only ended up destroying a total of 4 Panzers. Nevertheless, it was a good effort, and the attackers were awarded participation trophies.

And just a little bit further to the east of that, 3/11th Panzer has been totally cut off from the entire rest of the Axis armies in Proskurov. That regiment will soon be destroyed, the first of many such great victories to come over the next few weeks.

The gods of RNG have really blessed me this time around. These are all division-sized units which are on the map and not isolated. Look at the morale (and experience) on some of these units, 14 total divisions starting with morale higher than 55.



A 68 morale division!?! Oh yes please, I will take that. And a 66! and 6 more with 60+ morale! So you can see why Soviet propaganda is sure that we will be in Berlin by Christmas. Because with units like this, we will be.

Hopefully some of these bad buys will cause some problems for jubjub down the road as he is hunkered down in the Fuehrerbunker a couple months from now.

And here is the same graph for units which are isolated. Although jubjub did manage to isolate a lot of units, fortunately he did not isolate a disproportionate number of the ones that have especially high morale (and experience):



Only 3 isolated divisions with morale higher than 55, compared to 14 non-isolated ones.

Another minor little thing I did on turn 1 was this. I formed 24 machine gun battalions (the maximum allowed) which cost 0 AP each in the reserves, and then immediately sent them to the Northern Front (not even waiting for them to get any men or train).



Why? Because they can help fulfill the theater box requirements in the northern front, and since they are support units, I don't lose any valuable on-map counters by sending them to the Northern Front. And right now in the early turns, having as many on-map counters as possible is important.

While in the Northern Front, they will slowly get their morale and experience up. True, they would do that faster in the strategic reserve, but they would not contribute to the (starting out under-strength) theater box requirements if I let them train in the reserve. Later on, once they are trained up, I will have the option to either pull them out of the theater boxes and attach them to on-map units, or to leave them there.

I could make some units better sooner by attaching them to on-map units sooner, but right now quantity of my on-map counters is more important than their quality. But that will start changing within the next few months.

So when the Finns attack... there will be a LOT of machine guns waiting to greet them... Unlucky for them.

One very lucky rifle division (more precisely, a bit over a thousand stragglers from one very lucky rifle division) was evacuated by air from a pocket. The division is now recuperating and re-organizing in safety. But within a week or two, they will be back at the front, fighting the Panzers. A handful of vehicles were destroyed, and a few ground elements damaged in the process, but all in all this will be one more counter on the map in future turns.