Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:18 am**

On https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/ I have stumbled across a reference for a "BuOrd/ONI Publication #7 Japanese Merchant Ship Armament".

Unfortunately I have not been able to locate an online source for that publication. Anyone happens to have a link or a copy?

Background:

For my mod I'm looking for info about the arming of Japanese merchant ships. In a "US Strategic Bombing survey" publication on page 49 it is mentionned that the arming of Japanese merchant vessels began only in early 1943 - I'm searching for confirmation and more details.

As users of my mod may know, most US merchant ships start unarmed and have to upgrade to receive guns - because the arming of US merchantmen had been authorized only three weeks before the attack on Pearl Habor. Looks like the Japanese merchantmen have to receive the same treatment.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:23 am**

No idea myself, but my wife is a Librarian and I have set her upon the task

I will let you know if she finds anything.

Xargun

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:10 am**

I looked and could only find #9. I have a friend who's a Professor of Library Science at University of Wisconsin. He's a war-game designer and I set him on the task too.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:02 pm**

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I looked and could only find #9. I have a friend who's a Professor of Library Science at University of Wisconsin. He's a war-game designer and I set him on the task too.

Excellent - it is quite amazing what librarians can pulls out of the woodwork when you set them on a task.

Xargun

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:06 pm**

I heard from him. He believes it was never scanned. He's trying to find a physical copy that he can borrow, if possible, or get a copy of if that is possible.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:48 pm**

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I heard from him. He believes it was never scanned. He's trying to find a physical copy that he can borrow, if possible, or get a copy of if that is possible.

That is the conclusion my wife has as well - that its never been scanned.

Xargun

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:39 pm**

I have the ONI 208 Merchant Ship Recognition Manual on CD-ROM. But I don't think that's the relevant one.

Posted: **Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:35 pm**

Gentlemen, many thanks for your efforts!

Posted: **Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:46 am**

Have also made a request directly to ONI's PAO office to see if they can provide a link/source to this (and related) historical documents or a connection to an ONI office that can. I've been able to leverage the CAC (Combined Arms Center) out at Fort Leavenworth for equivalent Army information in the past... A bit off topic but CACs web site has Nafzinger's extensive order of battle research which I've used for years (bought many of his OB books when he was selling them directly at game conventions over the years) for both Napoleonic and WWII gaming. Just thought I'd toss that out there for any WITP grognards who may be interested for other games/periods. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure he did not branch out into naval, at least not at the detail needed for this question.

Game On. Kevin

Posted: **Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:47 am**

I am not sure that getting the info requested by the OP will solve the problem. My understanding is that to simplify the database and research, the Merchant Ship fleets of both sides were represented (abstracted) into fewer classes but similar tonnage as the real shipping of the time.

That means any given ship may be represented in the game by a different ship class with a different armament than the original. Unless the OP intends to create more ship classes to cover the issue, it is not going to be fruitful.

Posted: **Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:08 am**

BB, understand your point and concur it's not about a specific ship(s). I use LSTs mod but have made a few adjustments, for example I delay merchant ships and spread their mobilization into play over about 90 days for the IJ. Part of my thinking was they likely were not armed on 7 Dec, needed time to be armed, then moved into a national pool of assets (mobilized) for specific war support (centralized orders).

Should there be a reference that says arming them was historically delayed, significantly, I'd be inclined to create updates starting in late 42 and early 43 for the various ship classes already in play representing the IJ merchant capabilities, prioritizing the larger/faster vessels and start them in the game as unarmed.

I realize it's a bit of a "nit" point. But in my case I like to get the game as close to simulation as I can push it. That's aligned nicely with LST's approach to "slow" the pace, get in front of a-historical play with both detail and historical constraints.

Posted: **Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:29 am**

Thanks for explaining your intent. I see where you want to go now. Good luck with getting the info.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:12 pm**

I was going to recommend "Wartime Standard Ships" by Nick Robins, but a quick read through the small chapter on Japanese Merchant Ships in WW2 reveals nothing on armaments.
Perhaps Robins ran into the same issue of no reference materials.
Good luck- hope it works out.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:58 pm**

This is circumstantial evidence, but this link shows the TK Ichiyo Maru taking about 1 month from being requisitioned to joining her first convoy.
She was built before the war, so if any weapons were fitted they were probably done in that month.
There is no other mention of time in port for weapons upgrades, but they also could have happened later.
You could have a ## day upgrade option to install weapons, then leave it up to the player to choose if/when to install them.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Ichiyo_t.htm

Posted: **Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:26 pm**

Thank you JD, this helps validate my mod to LSTs mod is what I intended it to be, these civilian resources needed time to be mobilized and readied. At the moment I'm happy taking LSTs starting line up and randomly re-assigning start times/locations over a few months (bigger, more important (e.g. TKs), ships up front). Conveys needed for those "ready to go" invasion forces remain as they were, in play on 7 Dec. This mobilization for general assets seemed to me to be a reasonably historical way to start the game without getting too bogged down in details.

Should evidence arrive the IJ did not arm (most ships) until '43...well that's a different mater and one I'd need to address with a ship mod, starting the ships at mobilization as unarmed vs armed as they are today.

Please note for those with a keen interest in LSTs mod;
#1 - I love it and highly recommend it
#2 - My adjustment is about my personal hang up on making the game as historical as possible within it's constraints as a game. An additional benefit is it indirectly helps lighten the first turn burden...by removing all those first turn assets. Of note as well is I impose house rules that also limit the # of actions Allied players can take for the first 30 days as in 1941 communications and monitoring (e.g. satellites) were not what they are today. Scaling up the # of actions (changing TF orders, deleting TFs, new task forces, loading LCUs, LCU strategic moves, et.al.) by blocks of turns (weeks) over 30 days. With of course those closer to action(s) being more free to take action. Nothing gets you focused on loading faster than a staffing Zero.
#3 - LSTs current start is focused on giving players all the assets up front, as with just about every other version out there. His twist was to gather all those assets together in just a few locations to make your first turn easier.

Game On. Kevin

Posted: **Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:58 pm**

AFAIK the Japanese did recall their merchant ships from the oceans of the world back to Empire waters in July 1941 (following the embargo and freezing of assets), so most if not all should have reached a Japanese port by Dec 7th. Many civilian ships came under military control starting September 1941. So I don't think the mobilization of shipping assets required several months.

Posted: **Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:18 pm**

kbfchicago wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:26 pm Thank you JD, this helps validate my mod to LSTs mod is what I intended it to be, these civilian resources needed time to be mobilized and readied. At the moment I'm happy taking LSTs starting line up and randomly re-assigning start times/locations over a few months (bigger, more important (e.g. TKs), ships up front). Conveys needed for those "ready to go" invasion forces remain as they were, in play on 7 Dec. This mobilization for general assets seemed to me to be a reasonably historical way to start the game without getting too bogged down in details.

Should evidence arrive the IJ did not arm (most ships) until '43...well that's a different mater and one I'd need to address with a ship mod, starting the ships at mobilization as unarmed vs armed as they are today.

Please note for those with a keen interest in LSTs mod;
#1 - I love it and highly recommend it
#2 - My adjustment is about my personal hang up on making the game as historical as possible within it's constraints as a game. An additional benefit is it indirectly helps lighten the first turn burden...by removing all those first turn assets. Of note as well is I impose house rules that also limit the # of actions Allied players can take for the first 30 days as in 1941 communications and monitoring (e.g. satellites) were not what they are today. Scaling up the # of actions (changing TF orders, deleting TFs, new task forces, loading LCUs, LCU strategic moves, et.al.) by blocks of turns (weeks) over 30 days. With of course those closer to action(s) being more free to take action. Nothing gets you focused on loading faster than a staffing Zero.
#3 - LSTs current start is focused on giving players all the assets up front, as with just about every other version out there. His twist was to gather all those assets together in just a few locations to make your first turn easier.

Game On. Kevin

I agree it looks like a great mod and what I will be playing next. Will you be making your mod available as well? Do you play it with AI or against another player?

Posted: **Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:38 pm**

LST:
I just ran across this today, any chance it might be relevant?
NavWeaps Website
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_8-12_Short.php

It says the 8" gun was created in 1943 and first used then, so I expect it was later that year before it got mounted on ships. Big freaking gun for a Merchant!

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