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I play WPP, but I noticed over several turns that subs ALWAYS get surprise. We don't know what kind of bonus this gives, but the manuals suggest that they should have only a CHANCE to surprise. This got annoying when I lost an upgraded Yamato (a 5 HP BB) within a 6 BB/BC fleet trying to bait out interdictions from low 2-3 sub groups. That in itself was a (1/6)*0.3*0.1 (double crit) * (1/6) * 0.3 chance, assuming the subs damage went through (6? surface vs. 12 defense), so basically impossible under how we understand the rules. I did some testing and it looks like this is in fact true and not at all what the manual suggests. Given the extremely miniscule chance of the above at 0.00025% assuming full hits every time and the fact that we have no idea how sub surprise works, I am kind of at a loss. Yes, it's historical, but not fun given with stjeand's testing that carriers get decimated at a fraction of the cost. At least they do not blockade anymore, but I am just not going to use my navy period if there are 18 sub fleets running around (4 turns of US production).

For the record, I have half anti-sub tech and have had 10+ attacks on sub fleets with maybe one kill max each turn over several turns in-game.

On more investigation (on suspicion from my game), subs are able to freely surprise interdict 100% WITHOUT RECON.

I found the error.

I am surprised no one saw this before.
I am also surprise I didn't get a code error. It is dividing by 0 creating the bug.

Anyways it is fixed for the next patch. The bonus increases luck slightly in the battle.

Thanks

AlvaroSousa wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:19 am I found the error.

I am surprised no one saw this before.
I am also surprise I didn't get a code error. It is dividing by 0 creating the bug.

Anyways it is fixed for the next patch. The bonus increases luck slightly in the battle.

Thanks

Great. Bug hunter turned sub hunter I be.

AlvaroSousa wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:19 am I found the error.

I am surprised no one saw this before.
I am also surprise I didn't get a code error. It is dividing by 0 creating the bug.

Anyways it is fixed for the next patch. The bonus increases luck slightly in the battle.

Thanks

Also please take a look at the perfect interception in no recon. Not sure if it’s a separate issue from always getting surprise.
And while you’re at it, maybe sub cost should be touched up a bit. They are less than half the price of their counter and already extremely hard to sink given the defensive buffs against air and naval…
Edit: compare vs. patrol groups at 2 health and much worse stats. They just have 3-5 times the relative utility and hardiness for the price. I know US subs claimed half the tonnage in the pacific war but they also had disproportionately high casualty rates vs. other branches.

Which patrol groups have 2 health? US should be at 3. Some minor nations might be at 2 health because their navy was that small but other than that.

Al is this sub bug only in WPE?

I never noticed it in WPE...though might be there.

stjeand wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:42 pm Al is this sub bug only in WPE?

I never noticed it in WPE...though might be there.

I have noticed surprising u-boat surface attacks against the British where the UK suffers heavy losses and the u-boats are unscathed. It didn't use to be this way.

That I remember I have not changed that code. They get a small bonus to attack but it isn't crushing.

If you sail near an area controlled by the enemy your detection level is very high thus you will get spotted often.

This occurred in the Bay of Biscay at about 10 hexes from France. The hex indicated very low recon.

The results were very much like eskuche showed in his post.

AlvaroSousa wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:12 pm Which patrol groups have 2 health? US should be at 3. Some minor nations might be at 2 health because their navy was that small but other than that.

All patrol groups of all countries including US are at 2 health/manpower.