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I have played DW since the first game came out, buying every new add-on. I think DW1 is my all time #1 or #2 space 4x. After playing DW2 , DW1 is, sadly, still the king. You guys screwed the pooch on ship design, one of DW1s best features, even if imperfect. I'll keep trying to give 2 a chance, but geeze, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It's a consequence of moving to 3D graphics. You can't really have the old design system and still have space battles look good with the increased graphical fidelity. The weapon effects have to originate somewhere on the model, so the game has to know where it is mounted. That leads, fairly inevitably, to hardpoints. In DW1, all weapons just came out of the center of the sprite.

BTAxis wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:47 pm It's a consequence of moving to 3D graphics. You can't really have the old design system and still have space battles look good with the increased graphical fidelity. The weapon effects have to originate somewhere on the model, so the game has to know where it is mounted. That leads, fairly inevitably, to hardpoints. In DW1, all weapons just came out of the center of the sprite.

Ah thanks for the explanation on this I was wondering why things were so different. There should probably be a pinned release Q and A with stuff like this to save you guys time from answering every similar post as this seems to be one of the biggest complaints I have seen on the forums along with the non-rotating planets...

BTAxis wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:47 pm It's a consequence of moving to 3D graphics. You can't really have the old design system and still have space battles look good with the increased graphical fidelity. The weapon effects have to originate somewhere on the model, so the game has to know where it is mounted. That leads, fairly inevitably, to hardpoints. In DW1, all weapons just came out of the center of the sprite.

I don't buy that, after all have you ever noted the turbolaser batteries on the star destroyers in Star Wars? no? me neither.

I mean they didn't need to have an external gun, the arcs could have been done the same way MOO did thirty years ago, and you could call it a day

solops wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:57 pm I have played DW since the first game came out, buying every new add-on. I think DW1 is my all time #1 or #2 space 4x. After playing DW2 , DW1 is, sadly, still the king. You guys screwed the pooch on ship design, one of DW1s best features, even if imperfect. I'll keep trying to give 2 a chance, but geeze, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The whole design of no ship size having any limit was broken. You could literally make a Corvette the size of a battleship.
I prefer having the guidance of limit slots over the DW1 free for all with no guidelines every day of the week.

And then there is the part where each slot layout for each race can be vastly different, allowing environmental storytelling.

The freedom, in DWU, to design any ship or base exactly how you wanted, and of any size, is a strength not a weakness.

Imo having design constraints leads to more interesting and varied designs.

I find that ship design in DW2 is way more interesting than what it was in DW1... constraints actually give you way more viable options of design.

I find the opinion that limiting choices gives more options as an interesting point of view.

I said it give more VIABLE options... not more options... it is a big difference.

I'll add my vote for vastly preferring the new system.

Maybe. I've only put 12 hours or so into DW2 so you may be correct.

I've literally just started playing, so I might feel differently once I have more tech unlocked, but I found the lack of wiggle room with my initial designs very disappointing. Especially in prewarp, when I'd like to toss some more engines on my ships, it just was NOT a real option, given the limits. I totally get having some limits, and I'm predisposed to like this new system better since I barely even understood the old one, but just a little more freedom in the designs, early on, might be warranted. Again, maybe the system opens up later. We'll see.

BTAxis wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:47 pm It's a consequence of moving to 3D graphics. You can't really have the old design system and still have space battles look good with the increased graphical fidelity. The weapon effects have to originate somewhere on the model, so the game has to know where it is mounted. That leads, fairly inevitably, to hardpoints. In DW1, all weapons just came out of the center of the sprite.

So, because of pretty-ification, ship design must be devolved to the boring, stale way every other 4X game does it. Give me ugly graphics and the ability to actually design a decent ship.

BTW, the best ship design system ever created was for MOO2 (basic ship hull with X amount of space, fill it as you desire). DWU was probably the 2nd best. Hard point design systems are the worst.

BTAxis wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:47 pm That leads, fairly inevitably, to hardpoints.

It's not inevitable, it's just the easy way to do it.

DWU had a nice system for me. Fixed ship sizes with preallocated equipment module slots is a MAJOR step backwards in my opinion.

The best ship design system I have ever seen in a 4x game was Star Ruler (not Star Ruler 2). It allowed you to build any ship size you wanted with any mix and size of equipment you wanted. The graphics were fairly ordinary ship files that did not display the interior contents and ship fire originated from its center. Graphics however for me take a MAJOR back seat to the richness of options and degree of detail in which you can delve.

The system here is to pick a fixed-sized preconfigured ship and plug in fixed-size modules into preconfigured slots till it is full. Pretty much the only way to be MORE exactly opposite of build freedom is to have no build system at all. The only advantage is that it is simple and easy, both for players and for the designers (relatively speaking).

Retreat1970 wrote: Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:23 pm The freedom, in DWU, to design any ship or base exactly how you wanted, and of any size, is a strength not a weakness.

The one thing I hated with DWU was no hard limit on hull sizes. So an Escort could be massive, which is silly.

I did like the freedom but during beta testing I grew to accept (and understand) the DW2 system.

It does feel restrictive at first, but that is by design... as tech levels up you get more options and you do start to make decisions that aren't just "build the mega ship". I find myself building more tactically to suit the roles and fleets, which is good.

I only have managed about 10 hours actual playtime in DW2, compared to thousands in DW, however there are a few differences like this where I am really having to let go of some of the things I really enjoyed about DW, and ship design is one.
I do hear the comments about waiting until the tech tree is more unlocked, but I also remember why I liked the way it was in DW and I think I am going to have to let it go.
I did really like that there WERE limitations, but they kind of emerged and were constrained naturally by what you wanted from a ship, so for example balancing life support, mass, energy production and power draw and so-on meant that the limits felt natural and part of the physical nature of the game universe, like so much did in DW - that was a major stand-out feature of the game. Everything was a manifestation of how the living universe worked.
I have no doubt the ship design limits in DW2 will be deeply thought out and provide great gameplay situations and so-on, but will they ever feel like a natural manifestation of the world, rather than a game design choice? I don't think so and I will let that go.
It's the same with not being able to build a station until you have the resources - I loved that resource shortages and bottlenecks could naturally, organically, occur in DW1, because of how the universe worked and the game not protecting you from that provided challenges and for some were tedious, but they were another manifestation of your living world, where you could get your hands dirty and wrestle it to your will.

Anyway, it is clear that moving on I personally am going to have to treat DWU and DW2 as two different games and enjoy both. and being only 10 hours in I have absolutely no idea of how much more fun and immersive these changes may actually turn out to be.

space empires 5 and stardrive also had pretty interesting ship design

deMangler wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:28 am It's the same with not being able to build a station until you have the resources - I loved that resource shortages and bottlenecks could naturally, organically, occur in DW1, because of how the universe worked and the game not protecting you from that provided challenges and for some were tedious, but they were another manifestation of your living world, where you could get your hands dirty and wrestle it to your will.

I hear that. Personally, I hated seeing my constructors being stuck for decades because they didn't have enough steel for those last few nuts and bolts, and a freighter trying to deliver it from the other side of the empire. I'm glad to not have to deal with it anymore. But I absolutely understand what you're saying here.

In more general terms, I think that DW2 has removed some of the more idiosyncratic mechanics like that, in favor of more straightforward and accessible systems. In theory it's a good move because it smooths out the learning curve, but the downside is that in a lot of ways, it feels like there is always one optimal way to play the game, which is the way the game wants you to play. The feeling of being given the opportunity to succeed or fail depending on your methods that was in DWU is rather gone.