Matrix Games Forums

Apaprently the new approach to ship design is not universally liked or even accepted.
And I wonder where everyone falls on this discussion. So I made this poll.

I voted undecided, mainly because it took me hundreds of hours before I decided I liked the DWU way of doing it.
My perfect answer would be "Ship Design Changes are something I want to learn whether I like, over many hours of play."

I like it, because it forces you to focus your ship design. I think the reasons for the complaints are due to people thinking they have or need to fill every single available slot with a module/weapon. DW:U ship design was way worse (oh hey, let me design a battleship sized escort with 50 Maxos blasters).

First impressions, I like it. I feel it still gives me enough of a sandbox to play with, while at the same time helping me focus and streamline my designs. I was someone that felt overwhelmed with DWU's ship designer (I enjoyed the old one as well!).

Jasebump wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:28 pm I like it, because it forces you to focus your ship design. I think the reasons for the complaints are due to people thinking they have or need to fill every single available slot with a module/weapon. DW:U ship design was way worse (oh hey, let me design a battleship sized escort with 50 Maxos blasters).

Why do my size 1500 Escorts bother you? Do we play against each other? How is less freedom and creativity better than more? I don't understand the hate against designing anything you want to, and for whatever role or purpose.

Retreat1970 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:14 pm

Jasebump wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:28 pm I like it, because it forces you to focus your ship design. I think the reasons for the complaints are due to people thinking they have or need to fill every single available slot with a module/weapon. DW:U ship design was way worse (oh hey, let me design a battleship sized escort with 50 Maxos blasters).

Why do my size 1500 Escorts bother you? Do we play against each other? How is less freedom and creativity better than more? I don't understand the hate against designing anything you want to, and for whatever role or purpose.

Where am I, Karen city? I have stated my opinion and what I hated about the ship designer in DW:U. If you're seriously offended by me having another opinion contrary to yours I don't know what to say.

It is what it is, my opinion: I have never liked the ship design in DW:U, stated why I think it was absurd and why I like the way it is now in DW2. If you don't like the way it is now, well, that's your opinion, man. It's a free world.

First impression, I have no idea yet. I think some more restrictions to optimize around isn't necessarily bad. But I'm not sure how much I like the item slot limitations that make some of the more, ahem, creative ideas on ship design quite impossible. I wanted to cheese right away and that was hard with a pre-warp tech tier start.

But I suspect that's mostly an early game frustration. Later tech will enable bigger hulls with more slots and superior component strength will reduce the need to repeat the same component in multiple slots. And then the more creative designs become a lot more feasible.

It grows on you.

personally i like the new designer... i think every ship/station of every race has different slots, different weapon arcs and makes each race feel different.

I'm not offended and no need for names.

I too like ship classes and roles for the most part, but I like the ability to do things different if I want to. Does a Battleship with 50 engines and 1 gun make sense? Maybe not, but I could do it. Is an Escort with energy converters, LRS, and tractor beams viable? No, but I could do it.

If a game where a battleship sized escort is so unrealistic then how is:

1. Faster than light travel realistic?
2. Magical energy absorption shielding realistic?
3. Beam weapons, gravity weapons. etc...
4. Resorts around black holes.
5. Aliens that all are basically the same tech level and speak English (or French, German).

Joking aside, I loved the freedom of DWU. I'm sure in time DW2 will mature. I'll play both, but DWU with mods is still king. I'm sure that will change.

Retreat1970 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:08 pm I'm not offended and no need for names.

I too like ship classes and roles for the most part, but I like the ability to do things different if I want to. Does a Battleship with 50 engines and 1 gun make sense? Maybe not, but I could do it. Is an Escort with energy converters, LRS, and tractor beams viable? No, but I could do it.

If a game where a battleship sized escort is so unrealistic then how is:

1. Faster than light travel realistic?
2. Magical energy absorption shielding realistic?
3. Beam weapons, gravity weapons. etc...
4. Resorts around black holes.
5. Aliens that all are basically the same tech level and speak English (or French, German).

Joking aside, I loved the freedom of DWU. I'm sure in time DW2 will mature. I'll play both, but DWU with mods is still king. I'm sure that will change.

I can suspend my disbelief for points 1-4. 5 the game gets around it by having separate techs to research to "learn" other languages/cultures.

However I can't believe that any galactic civilization would generate a 50 engine 1 gun ship. It just doesn't make logical sense to me.

Personally I find the Dw2 designer is more interesting. I like having different optimization corners rather than just "size" and cost

Retreat1970 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:14 pm
Why do my size 1500 Escorts bother you? Do we play against each other? How is less freedom and creativity better than more? I don't understand the hate against designing anything you want to, and for whatever role or purpose.

Because having meaningful space constraints promotes interesting cost trade benefits. For once I actually appreciate the haakonish's dense fuel cell because it opens a ship slot for something else as an example. Previously I only had to balance thrust to mass ratio's.

It also gives races distinct flavour due to the inherent ship designs, and no longer do I just import one design sheet for every race that I play.

ClassicAz wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:15 pm

Retreat1970 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:14 pm
Why do my size 1500 Escorts bother you? Do we play against each other? How is less freedom and creativity better than more? I don't understand the hate against designing anything you want to, and for whatever role or purpose.

Because having meaningful space constraints promotes interesting cost trade benefits. For once I actually appreciate the haakonish's dense fuel cell because it opens a ship slot for something else as an example. Previously I only had to balance thrust to mass ratio's.

It also gives races distinct flavour due to the inherent ship designs, and no longer do I just import one design sheet for every race that I play.

What you say is true, but it still applies to DWU as well. Dense fuel cells open up space in DWU too.

I don't think I'm getting my point across which is my fault. It doesn't matter anyways really. The game is what it is. I like the fact I can create almost anything I want in DWU. Having one set template isn't creative for me. Sometimes I roleplay. Other times I don't. Once I tried to play Atuuk and decided shields were against their beliefs. That was a rough go, but I could design the ships with tons of armor without the game telling me what spaces were for what. I would try and send in a slow battleship with 50% armor first to soak damage with the fleet close behind. It didn't work well, but the point is the game didn't limit my imagination to try new things.

Retreat1970 wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:13 am

ClassicAz wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:15 pm

Retreat1970 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:14 pm
Why do my size 1500 Escorts bother you? Do we play against each other? How is less freedom and creativity better than more? I don't understand the hate against designing anything you want to, and for whatever role or purpose.

Because having meaningful space constraints promotes interesting cost trade benefits. For once I actually appreciate the haakonish's dense fuel cell because it opens a ship slot for something else as an example. Previously I only had to balance thrust to mass ratio's.

It also gives races distinct flavour due to the inherent ship designs, and no longer do I just import one design sheet for every race that I play.

What you say is true, but it still applies to DWU as well. Dense fuel cells open up space in DWU too.

I don't think I'm getting my point across which is my fault. It doesn't matter anyways really. The game is what it is. I like the fact I can create almost anything I want in DWU. Having one set template isn't creative for me. Sometimes I roleplay. Other times I don't. Once I tried to play Atuuk and decided shields were against their beliefs. That was a rough go, but I could design the ships with tons of armor without the game telling me what spaces were for what. I would try and send in a slow battleship with 50% armor first to soak damage with the fleet close behind. It didn't work well, but the point is the game didn't limit my imagination to try new things.

You can go for full armor in DW2 as well though, not that it makes much sense.

What I don't understand is why people are so hung up on the ship designer and rotating planets when so many other functions are essentially still in beta. Ship designer and the main map are pretty much working and well designed.

The early game in DW2 and elements like diplomacy lack a lot of depth. Pirates are window dressing and can be completely ignored; every time I look at a Let's Play on YouTube or a Live Stream on Twitch I am completely dumbfounded why people are wasting so many ressources on fighting pirates. The only way to go when starting pre-warp at the moment is Economy (Resort bases), going for NAPs / MF with all the pirates you encounter -> Hyperdrive T2 -> Colonization tech -> settling 1 or 2 indy worlds peacefully (your economy is strong enough and indy worlds are not a drain on your economy like a freshly settled world would be and help you snowball so much faster) -> building military with all the research advantage your economy gave you -> invade homeworld of first neighboring empire -> snowball into midgame with a huge advantage over the AI even on harder difficulties.

Any other approach doesn't make sense at the moment.

To be clear: I love the game despite the bugs and kinks to be worked out still.

I like the size constraints on the different hull types. I loathe the equipment slots.

Full armour with the teekan repair tech was pretty sick strat I thought......

My previous undecided vote would be heading towards the changes being good.
This is because DW2 is doing something I have wished for in many other 3D games, which is to see the underlying simulation (if there is one), not abstracted so much but actually revealed as part of the 3D world.
My view has been, just give me a spreadsheet game and I will be happy, but on the other hand if you are going to give me pretty graphics make sure they actually reveal the richness of the dynamic world. In most games they don't and are just a fluffy distraction that disappoints me.

Congratulations and thanks for making this design choice. It is wonderful to see those ships and so forth do their thing in the way they do, and if an opportunity cost of that is the changes in ship design then I say great and thanks.

I just want to say that we do hear the folks who want more flexibility in ship design. Once we've resolved all the critical and serious issues we're dealing with now, Elliot and I will put our heads together and see what we can do to add options for more flexible ship design for those who prefer it.

You guys rock.

I think there are a lot of nitpicky things that I get worked up over, but nothing that should set anyone back on their heels. I am hesitant to say "I don't like it." because someone may have spent a year designing it and making it work, but then again I'm kind of "What works shouldn't be fixed" type of person and I thought ship design in DWU worked. I'm till undecided here.

One of my nitpicky things that reminds me of the scene in "Cable Guy" where Matthew Brodreick wants some utensils in Medieval World Restaurant. "There were no utensils but there was Pepsi?", "Dude, I got a lot of tables." I was off on a tangent thinking... "So, the year is 365 days, which is based off of Earth's rotation around the sun, but aliens use it, and on different solar systems?" "I could see Erik and Elliot saying, "Dude, we have a lot of bugs to fix."