Matrix Games Forums

When researching a troop tech, only newly-trained units benefit from it. This feels a bit wrong, because it incentivizes to hold off building troops until you have researched a good chunk of troop techs. It makes better sense to have any upgrades applying both to newly-trained and old troops. Or a more realistic option would be to pay a cost to upgrade existing troops to current tech standards. Troop Maintenance Savings techs are the only ones that seem to apply retroactively.

Also, the tooltip for troops doesn't seem to update their maintenance costs after taking Troop Maintenance Savings into account. Playing as Humans, the tooltip says that my Infantry cost 200 in maintenance, when in actuality they should be costing me 180 (with Improved Logistics) right now. However, Attack and Defense strength are updated correctly after researching Improved Assault & Defense Tactics. This creates the false impression that Maintenance Savings doesn't work (but if I look at my balance sheet, I'm paying the correct amount for troop maintenance, including savings).

Furthermore, the tooltip does not take into account any General's stats stationed with the troops. For example, my current General is giving my newly-trained troops +4% attack strength and a further +8% attack strength overall. This 12% bonus increase in strength is not shown anywhere that I can see.

I suggest that the troop tooltip should split into 2 columns. 1 column giving the base stats and 1 column showing their updated stats after receiving all bonuses.

OrnluWolfjarl wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:16 pm When researching a troop tech, only newly-trained units benefit from it. This feels a bit wrong, because it incentivizes to hold off building troops until you have researched a good chunk of troop techs. It makes better sense to have any upgrades applying both to newly-trained and old troops. Or a more realistic option would be to pay a cost to upgrade existing troops to current tech standards. Troop Maintenance Savings techs are the only ones that seem to apply retroactively.

Wait, they still only work on new Troops?

I thought they fixed that with DW2!
The mechanic in DW1 was just a plain dumb design!

Wait, how certain are you they do apply retroactively?

I often start games on TL 1 now, where I start the game with Improoved Assault and Defense Tactics.
Yet all my Infantry are still displayed with the Species Baseline Attack and Defense values. I would guess those bonuses are worked in during combat, not before.

As I said, "newly recruited Troops" is always a stupid idea. Something that should never, ever have been in DW.

Yeah troops in DW1 were weird.

I think the main problem was that the Experience System and the Upgrade System were mashed into one thing.

The Maintenance Reduction could work retroactive because the Maintenance Cost did not change through other means.

Troop Combat scores on the other hand existed through
(racial base value + local recruitment modifier + experience ) x troop strength/health

you could guess this pretty easy from context, because the better your troop research, the more experience was awarded to newly formed troops. After this only experience gained through battle could improve troops.
So there could be veteran troops that still outclassed new recruits, but I think rewarding the percentage bonus in experience to those troops would break the system

At the moment I am actually to tired to form a coherent plan how to fix this calculation correctly. .. wrong, just apply the modifier to base strength instead to experience ..

any Ideas how it works in DW2 ?

zgrssd wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:58 pm Wait, how certain are you they do apply retroactively?

I often start games on TL 1 now, where I start the game with Improoved Assault and Defense Tactics.
Yet all my Infantry are still displayed with the Species Baseline Attack and Defense values. I would guess those bonuses are worked in during combat, not before.

As I said, "newly recruited Troops" is always a stupid idea. Something that should never, ever have been in DW.

I have 20 Infantry @ base 200 maintenance each. 10 of those were constructed before Improved Logistics, 10 of those were constructed after. I have 10% Savings from Improved Logistics + 5% Savings from their General = 15%

20 * 200 = 4000 Base Maintenance

4000 * 0.15 = 600 Savings

4000 - 600 = 3400 Maintenance with Savings, which is exactly what I'm paying according to the Empire's ledger.

If it didn't apply retroactively, I would be paying 3600 Maintenance (Since 10 of my Infantry would be discounted only at the general's 5% and the other 10 at 15%). My guess is that the calculation for Savings is applied directly on the total amount you are supposed to be paying, instead of on each troop. Whereas Assault, Defense, etc apply on each troop individually.

The tech bonuses are applied on the unit's creation (I'm guessing general bonuses are applied during combat). My 10 Pre-Warp Infantry are at 126 Defense & Assault. My 10 Tier 1 Infantry are at 138 Defense & Assault (which is the 10% bonus rounded down). This is shown both on the unit symbol when you look at it on the Expanded Colony Window, and on its tooltip if you hover over it.

Emperor0Akim wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:39 pm Yeah troops in DW1 were weird.

I think the main problem was that the Experience System and the Upgrade System were mashed into one thing.

The Maintenance Reduction could work retroactive because the Maintenance Cost did not change through other means.

Troop Combat scores on the other hand existed through
(racial base value + local recruitment modifier + experience ) x troop strength/health

you could guess this pretty easy from context, because the better your troop research, the more experience was awarded to newly formed troops. After this only experience gained through battle could improve troops.
So there could be veteran troops that still outclassed new recruits, but I think rewarding the percentage bonus in experience to those troops would break the system

At the moment I am actually to tired to form a coherent plan how to fix this calculation correctly. .. wrong, just apply the modifier to base strength instead to experience ..

any Ideas how it works in DW2 ?

No idea how it works yet, and I haven't performed much ground combat at the ground level to figure if something else is happening behind the numbers seen by the players.

OrnluWolfjarl wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:54 pm

zgrssd wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:58 pm Wait, how certain are you they do apply retroactively?

I often start games on TL 1 now, where I start the game with Improoved Assault and Defense Tactics.
Yet all my Infantry are still displayed with the Species Baseline Attack and Defense values. I would guess those bonuses are worked in during combat, not before.

As I said, "newly recruited Troops" is always a stupid idea. Something that should never, ever have been in DW.

I have 20 Infantry @ base 200 maintenance each. 10 of those were constructed before Improved Logistics, 10 of those were constructed after. I have 10% Savings from Improved Logistics + 5% Savings from their General = 15%

20 * 200 = 4000 Base Maintenance

4000 * 0.15 = 600 Savings

4000 - 600 = 3400 Maintenance with Savings, which is exactly what I'm paying according to the Empire's ledger.

Sorry, but if your argument was true, the math would have to be:

Half before cost reduction;
10 * 200 = 2000 Mainteannce

Half after cost reduction:
10 * 200 * 85% = 2000 * 85% = 2000-300 = 1700

Total:
2000 + 1700 = 3700

So it looks like you jsut prooved that Maintenance reduction does apply retroactively?

Also, what about Government, Empire Species and Leader?

zgrssd wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:21 pm

OrnluWolfjarl wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:54 pm

zgrssd wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:58 pm Wait, how certain are you they do apply retroactively?

I often start games on TL 1 now, where I start the game with Improoved Assault and Defense Tactics.
Yet all my Infantry are still displayed with the Species Baseline Attack and Defense values. I would guess those bonuses are worked in during combat, not before.

As I said, "newly recruited Troops" is always a stupid idea. Something that should never, ever have been in DW.

I have 20 Infantry @ base 200 maintenance each. 10 of those were constructed before Improved Logistics, 10 of those were constructed after. I have 10% Savings from Improved Logistics + 5% Savings from their General = 15%

20 * 200 = 4000 Base Maintenance

4000 * 0.15 = 600 Savings

4000 - 600 = 3400 Maintenance with Savings, which is exactly what I'm paying according to the Empire's ledger.

Sorry, but if your argument was true, the math would have to be:

Half before cost reduction;
10 * 200 = 2000 Mainteannce

Half after cost reduction:
10 * 200 * 85% = 2000 * 85% = 2000-300 = 1700

Total:
2000 + 1700 = 3700

So it looks like you jsut prooved that Maintenance reduction does apply retroactively?

Also, what about Government, Empire Species and Leader?

Yes, I'm saying Maintenance Savings do apply retroactively, but Attack & Defense values do not.

(Also, in your first calculation, you should apply *95% because as I said, I have a General who gives 5% maintenance reduction)

I'm not paying 3600 or 3700 by your math. I am paying 3400, which means the maintenance discount applies to both groups of troops.

Anyway, this is besides the point, because I'm using that as an example to explain that the tooltip when you hover over a troop displays the wrong information.

OrnluWolfjarl wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:02 pm Yes, I'm saying Maintenance Savings do apply retroactively, but Attack & Defense values do not.

(Also, in your first calculation, you should apply *95% because as I said, I have a General who gives 5% maintenance reduction)

I'm not paying 3600 or 3700 by your math. I am paying 3400, which means the maintenance discount applies to both groups of troops.

Anyway, this is besides the point, because I'm using that as an example to explain that the tooltip when you hover over a troop displays the wrong information.

Why do you use a value that does apply retoractively, to proove the combat modifiers do not apply retroactively?

I will repeat what I said:
- I am starting on TL1
- I start with Improoved Assault and Improoved Defense tactics, granting +10% Attack and Defense respectively
- The combat strenght for Boskara Infantry is listed as 155 Attack/Defense
- The combat strenght for Teekans is listed as 75 Attack/Defense

So whatever effect those techs have, is not displayed on the Unit.
It likely applies during combat.
So where exactly do you got the information this bonus only applies retroactively.

zgrssd wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:40 am
Why do you use a value that does apply retoractively, to proove the combat modifiers do not apply retroactively?

I'm not using it to prove anything. I am stating two different issues:

Issue 1: Combat modifiers gained from tech are not applied retroactively. This has nothing to do with Maintenance Savings.

Issue 2: Combat modifiers gained from tech update on the unit's tooltip and displayed strength. However, Maintenance Savings modifiers gained from tech do not update on the unit's tooltip, even though they do work as intended.

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Combat modifiers gained from tech upgrade only newly-created units. This is something you can easily test. Produce an infantry before getting a tech upgrade and produce a unit after. Compare their strength through their tooltip, troop list, game editor, combat screen or whatever other means at your disposal. They are not the same.