Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:10 pm**

What is going on with some of the TOE elements of this Tank Division over 200%? Some other elements over 125%. This isn't the only Tank division this is happening too either. Here are some screenshots. Also why wouldnt the T-34's and KV's fill up? Also my other Tank divisions did not fill up with T-34's or KV's either. So what is up with that?

I am on .21 and will be upgrading to .24. I don't have saves if it comes to that but it is on the Server my "only" game with K62.

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 2:53 pm**

Maybe because of Upgrade to 41b TOE causes the excessive numbers? I am asking since I am looking for an answer

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:48 pm**

That division starts with the highest number of tanks in the Red Army (472) and it looks like it's sent some of them back to pool as it's currently down to 416. That's still above the 41a OOB of 375 tanks and more than double the 41b OOB of 205. The other elements as just normally overstrength as you'd expect for the 41a -> 41b upgrade. (Except for armored cars, which you also start with a lot of.)

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:55 pm**

So it looks to be because of the TOE upgrade to 41b then

Thank you K62!

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:19 pm**

Seems to be working as intended. If you place Grigory Kulik in charge of STAVKA, he can cause extremely good admin checks allowing you to make other worldly tank brigades and tank divisions.

It's slightly strange to me that these 250+ AFV tank brigades have so few trucks. I think a formation with hundreds of AFVs should require atleast 1000 trucks. Luckily only Italians require that many. Another sign of Kuliks logistical genius!

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:21 pm**

Holy crap! So there is something else going on here? You are still able to do that Kulik? Holy smokes!

7 heavy tank on TOE but you have 45 (642%)
22 Medium tanks but you have 115 (522%)

How many turns was it this size?

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:25 pm**

Nice!
I also made a post some time ago about over TOE riffle divisions in road to Leningrad. Cant find it. But the way to make them was pretty simple. Supply priority 4 and refit mode. That's it.
And they were over 100% TOE not due to a toe upgrade. Just normal refit process.

And about Italians and their trucks...
Now we know that there are even worse units than just simple Axis allies. It is Axis allies with 1k+ trucks.

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:39 pm**

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:21 pm Holy crap! So there is something else going on here? You are still able to do that Kulik? Holy smokes!

7 heavy tank on TOE but you have 45 (642%)
22 Medium tanks but you have 115 (522%)

How many turns was it this size?

It has been 255+ TOE since Turn 12 I believe, reducing to 150%ish toe after attacking every turn and possibly some natural shedding.

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:13 pm**

ToxicThug11 wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:39 pm
HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:21 pm Holy crap! So there is something else going on here? You are still able to do that Kulik? Holy smokes!

7 heavy tank on TOE but you have 45 (642%)
22 Medium tanks but you have 115 (522%)

How many turns was it this size?
It has been 255+ TOE since Turn 12 I believe, reducing to 150%ish toe after attacking every turn and possibly some natural shedding.

You are on what turn with it?

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:42 pm**

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:13 pm
ToxicThug11 wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:39 pm
HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:21 pm Holy crap! So there is something else going on here? You are still able to do that Kulik? Holy smokes!

7 heavy tank on TOE but you have 45 (642%)
22 Medium tanks but you have 115 (522%)

How many turns was it this size?
It has been 255+ TOE since Turn 12 I believe, reducing to 150%ish toe after attacking every turn and possibly some natural shedding.
You are on what turn with it?

18 now.

Posted: **Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:16 am**

WoW! And I don't mean "World of Warcraft" even though I have played that.

Posted: **Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:54 am**

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:10 pm ......Also why wouldnt the T-34's and KV's fill up? Also my other Tank divisions did not fill up with T-34'......

There are a lot of BT cavalry tank in the unit. They can be substitutions for medium tank. You can see that the medium tank slot is filled up to 100% in your 2nd pic. You can tick the ground element mapping box at bottom left corner of pic2 to see how the substitution works. I think this is the reason for no T-34 assigned to this unit. I have no idea about the heavy tanks. Have you send the unit to rear depot or nat reserve to test if heavy tanks will be filled up?

Posted: **Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:39 pm**

jlbhung wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:54 am
HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:10 pm ......Also why wouldnt the T-34's and KV's fill up? Also my other Tank divisions did not fill up with T-34'......
There are a lot of BT cavalry tank in the unit. They can be substitutions for medium tank. You can see that the medium tank slot is filled up to 100% in your 2nd pic. You can tick the ground element mapping box at bottom left corner of pic2 to see how the substitution works. I think this is the reason for no T-34 assigned to this unit. I have no idea about the heavy tanks. Have you send the unit to rear depot or nat reserve to test if heavy tanks will be filled up?

Yes, Correct and thank you for the reply. I do have other units that were on refit in great supply and did not receive any tanks in these two spots for T34 or KV without any tanks at all being there.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:43 am**

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:39 pm ... I do have other units that were on refit in great supply and did not receive any tanks in these two spots for T34 or KV without any tanks at all being there.

I took a Soviet T1 save of a 41Campaign vs Ger AI game, turn it to HvH and tested run it for 4 turns with both Sov and Ger sides basically doing nothing. The pic shows the changes in no. of units equiped with T34/41 and KV-1 and overall no. of these tanks in different places -
.

: Overall figures.png (7.78 KiB) Viewed 854 times

.
I also put four Tank Divisions in different locations (VL, Leningrad, Moscow and sent to Reserve) and observed changes in their T34 (M Tank) and KV1 (Hv Tank) % - only these four were in refit mode
.

: Specific Tank Div.png (7.41 KiB) Viewed 854 times

.
It appears that T34 and KV1 are going to units, though not perfectly as the active Pool was not emptied. It also appears that theatres and NSS?(Moscow) may have priority.

Pls note that the figures are for indications only, as this is a mod game with Sov ToE changed.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:14 pm**

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:10 pm What is going on with some of the TOE elements of this Tank Division over 200%? Some other elements over 125%. This isn't the only Tank division this is happening too either. Here are some screenshots. Also why wouldnt the T-34's and KV's fill up? Also my other Tank divisions did not fill up with T-34's or KV's either. So what is up with that?

I am on .21 and will be upgrading to .24. I don't have saves if it comes to that but it is on the Server my "only" game with K62.

This is due to 41a tank divisions upgrading to 41b tank divisions. 41a TOE is much larger than 41b toe, so they get the TOE >100% since they don't really shed their elements unless you put them in the reserve and refit them.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:22 pm**

The brigades still get massive TOEs with no change.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:44 pm**

Jango32 wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:22 pm The brigades still get massive TOEs with no change.

I think 41b divisions can downgrade to brigades before the '42 cutoff. You'd have to look at the rename tab to see if this is the case. I though that the trigger for that downgrade was if they became depleted, so I'm not 100% sure what's going on there.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:34 pm**

jlbhung wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:43 am
HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:39 pm ... I do have other units that were on refit in great supply and did not receive any tanks in these two spots for T34 or KV without any tanks at all being there.
I took a Soviet T1 save of a 41Campaign vs Ger AI game, turn it to HvH and tested run it for 4 turns with both Sov and Ger sides basically doing nothing. The pic shows the changes in no. of units equiped with T34/41 and KV-1 and overall no. of these tanks in different places -
.
Overall figures.png
.
I also put four Tank Divisions in different locations (VL, Leningrad, Moscow and sent to Reserve) and observed changes in their T34 (M Tank) and KV1 (Hv Tank) % - only these four were in refit mode
.
Specific Tank Div.png
.
It appears that T34 and KV1 are going to units, though not perfectly as the active Pool was not emptied. It also appears that theatres and NSS?(Moscow) may have priority.

Pls note that the figures are for indications only, as this is a mod game with Sov ToE changed.

Very interesting observed changes in the T34 (M Tank) and KV1 (Hv tank) %. There seems to be a threshold (production) before allocating out even in the active pool? I am curious if there is a time constraint too. Anything in the manual? I ask since I don't read manuals.

I know there are other threads that have shown that "Theaters boxes" get the lion share of reinforcements. I believe Xhoel showed that in his beautifully written AAR and I think Jubjub has a write up too but may be mistaken and others.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:39 pm**

jubjub wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:14 pm
HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:10 pm What is going on with some of the TOE elements of this Tank Division over 200%? Some other elements over 125%. This isn't the only Tank division this is happening too either. Here are some screenshots. Also why wouldnt the T-34's and KV's fill up? Also my other Tank divisions did not fill up with T-34's or KV's either. So what is up with that?

I am on .21 and will be upgrading to .24. I don't have saves if it comes to that but it is on the Server my "only" game with K62.
This is due to 41a tank divisions upgrading to 41b tank divisions. 41a TOE is much larger than 41b toe, so they get the TOE >100% since they don't really shed their elements unless you put them in the reserve and refit them.

Ah, thank you. This further reinforces my guess and along with other posters above stating the same. Thank you all.

So technically once these Tank Divisions (and brigades that Kulik showed) go over TOE the shedding is very slow & will replace back up proportionately based on that overblown TOE? Seems that is what Kulik is showing in his 6 turns of super Soviet brigades. Or am I missing something?

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:39 pm**

The Soviets start with 4 tank divisions that are outside the initial pockets and 100+% on the 41a OOB. I guess the way to obtain the super brigades is to assign them to a poor leader and let them rout. They have a 20% chance to convert to a brigade in case of a rout and, assuming they didn't lose too many tanks on retreat, should be much stronger than the normal 93 tanks complement for a brigade. It's also possible that keeping them assigned to a poor leader will cause them to miss admin checks and shed the extra tanks more slowly. I doubt you can get more than 1-2 per game though, and they're not stronger than the original tank division.

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