Matrix Games Forums

As I experiment on learning more about Stealth and jamming, I've run some simple tests. In all of them I'm flying straight at a radar facility with some SAM protection, coming in over the sea to a coastal facility so terrain is not in play. In one facility I have a few different radars that I think are used by US/Western countries covered with a Patriot and I-HAWK SAM sites. Group of "western radars" are J-FPS/5, AN-117, GM-406, RAT-31. 'Russian' radars are 59N6-Provotnik, Big Bird D, Cheeseboard, Y-27, Tall Rack and Rezonans N.

The radar first identifies a plane as a bogey. As it gets closer, it is classified as a type (bomber, multirole, OECM). Eventually it is identified as what it is (F-35, etc.) and engaged. The classification and the specific ID (and determination of hostility) is always done by a SAM system with TV Cameras (generic or IR). My Russianfacility originally had only S-300 and S-400, none of which have the type of sensors to specifically ID the target. So I added a Soviet Sa-17, which has the TV camera but no other sensors. Based on where I'm at so far, I've got a couple of questions:

These missions are all flown at night. Am I correct that in daylight there could be a visual ID even if no TV camera systems?

In the 'western' facility, I fly the missions with only one of the radars turned on, and no radar from the SAM sites. Once the I-HAWK classifies the plane as hostile the SAMs engage it. When I fly against the 'Russian' facility, the SA-17 TV camera identifies the target and engages it, but the S-300 and S-400 never turn their sensors on to engage. Why the difference?

The TV cameras seem to have a range between 5-9 miles. Are there other systems that have longer ranges than that? Either other SAM systems or completely different facilities I'm not aware of? Note, I'm intentionally not adding in AEW aircraft at this time, just experimenting with ground facilities.

Finally (for now) are there other types of ground based units that can classify and identify the aircraft? For instance things I could place farther away from what I'm protecting that will make the ID and allow the longer range SAMs to engage?

With regards to when SAMs will turn on their radars to engage contacts detected by other units, Knighthawk75 lays out in this thread the DB characteristics SAMs have to have in order to "auto-on" and engage: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=380836. I keep meaning to run some tests and see if based off of Knighthawk75's report I can reliably discern from the in-game DB viewer whether or not a SAM will "auto-on," but I haven't gotten around to it yet (in my defense, War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition is a very engrossing game).

As for your other questions:

These missions are all flown at night. Am I correct that in daylight there could be a visual ID even if no TV camera systems?

Yes, worst-case scenario the Mk1 Eyeball will make the identification

Finally (for now) are there other types of ground based units that can classify and identify the aircraft?

Certain types of radar are capable of Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). NCTR capable systems can analyze the radar returns of a contact and identify it. Such radars will have a NCTR flag in their DB entry (I forget the exact text but it'll be pretty obvious if you see it). If the contact is emitting and the SAM's side has a unit with good enough ELINT to determine the type of radar then that can also permit an identification.

Outside of these systems, the identify of contacts often has to be inferred. If you're setting up the AI then this can be sort of done with an exclusion zone. If you're trying to identify contacts for the player controlled side then you can consider variables such as the contact's flightpath, emissions (if you can't identify the exact radar-type), speed, altitude, and whether or not it is in a group to determine if it is likely hostile or not.

That's helpful, thank you. This posst also appeared just after I posted and it seems useful as well

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=381761

fatgreta1066 wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:59 pm
but the S-300 and S-400 never turn their sensors on to engage. Why the difference?

Finally (for now) are there other types of ground based units that can classify and identify the aircraft? For instance things I could place farther away from what I'm protecting that will make the ID and allow the longer range SAMs to engage?

Please change the WRA setting to free to engage any units that is not friendly, that should solve the problem

KungPao wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:33 pm

fatgreta1066 wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:59 pm
but the S-300 and S-400 never turn their sensors on to engage. Why the difference?

Finally (for now) are there other types of ground based units that can classify and identify the aircraft? For instance things I could place farther away from what I'm protecting that will make the ID and allow the longer range SAMs to engage?

Please change the WRA setting to free to engage any units that is not friendly, that should solve the problem

That would lead to earlier engagements sure, but that wouldn't solve the problem. If they're free to engage any target might they not engage a civilian airliner, or a neutral power's as yet unidentified craft, or even potentially an ally's unit before it's identified? With a SAM like the S-400 that has very long range I'd think that could be a significant problem depending on the scenario.

You can limit that with a combination of "free" weapons and WRA can't you?

fatgreta1066 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:36 pm That would lead to earlier engagements sure, but that wouldn't solve the problem. If they're free to engage any target might they not engage a civilian airliner, or a neutral power's as yet unidentified craft, or even potentially an ally's unit before it's identified? With a SAM like the S-400 that has very long range I'd think that could be a significant problem depending on the scenario.

No pain, no gain. we got to accept the fact that S-300 and S-400 are lacking of target identification capability. To further fix that:
As stww2 has mentioned, use NCTR capable radar , set up an exclusion zone
or, sending out a group of A/C with good IRST system to patrol the same area.
you need a combined arms

If you are designing a scenario and trying to make AI's SAM more deadly, consider to give AI some bonus. Change AI side's situation awareness to "AutoSideID"