Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:39 am**

In our PBEM game I moved a fleet of 2 CV and 3 surface escorting one USA corps of 30 to a beach hex adjacent to the port in New Caledonia. The Japanese had one land based plane there and a bunch of ships in port. The one plane conducted a naval interdiction and sank 24 of the 30 SPs and the combat log did not indicate that any of the planes from the 2 CVs came up to intercept. To add insult to injury the invasion toggle isn't active so I assume the naval interdiction ends the move of the USA fleet.

Can someone explain to me why the aircraft on the 2 CV did not intercept to protect the transported unit? I had the CVs set to attack naval. If CV air do not protect transported land units it would be very difficult to invade unless you had land based fighters in range to protect the transport.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:34 pm**

CV needs to be with the invasion fleet.

Right now the game doesn't have CV CAP as it is too difficult to implement and causes issues of baiting by the other players.

They would send planes to suck and destroy all the CV air power then strike it with a CV task force.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:47 pm**

The CVs were with the transported unit. It was a fleet that consisted of the 2 CVs, 3 surface and the transported infantry corps. They all started and sailed from the same port.

I just want to clarify your reply about CVs not having CAP. If I have a fleet with CVs and they are intercepted by land based air will they engage in air to air combat with those air units? If yes, does it matter what target the CVs are set to? For example, naval, ground, airfields, production.

In this situation, the CVs did not respond to the attack by the land based air. I am wondering how you can protect land units attempting an invasion if enemy land based air or naval units are in range of the invasion hex.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:14 pm**

If they were all together then yes they protect it.

The thing to understand is an air unit is ~300 planes.

A single CV is 100 planes. Only 33 of those are fighters.

If you look at most naval battles land based air dominates over fleet air.

Ok so you can tell me about the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.

Here the USA had 7 CVs and 8 CVLs. ~900 a/c
The Japanese had 6 CVs and 3 CVLs but they were fairly depleted of planes. They also had 300 land based air, or 1 counter. ~700 planes.

On top of all that the planes were poor experience.

So imagine that battle in WPP terms? Assuming small fleet scenario we are looking at 4 CV fleets with 4 CV + 2 escorts vs 1 land based air counter + 3 CV fleets with depleted air.

Thus why the Pacific is about bases.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:13 pm**

Thank you for your detailed reply. Yes we have noticed how lethal land based air are in this game. What you are saying then is that if the transported ground unit starts the turn with say CVs then after moving to the beach hex they will be protected by the air of the CV although as you point out the CV air will be outnumbered so the transported unit may still suffer significant damage.

I am running some hot seat tests but it looks to me that a tactic you could use is to move one DD at a time within range of the land based air until it uses up it's 2 successful interceptions. Then you move the transported ground unit along with surface ships for bombardment to the beach hex. This is what I would consider an exploit. A fix for this might be adding a transport as a target toggle so that the land based air will only try to intercept transports. However if that transport is in a fleet with CVs the air from the CVs still should be able to engage in air to air combat before the land based air targets the transport.

Posted: **Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:55 pm**

Could you please check, during your hotseat testing, if this is correctly indicated in Combat Logs i.e. air to air battles?

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:08 am**

I did some testing and confirmed that when a transported ground unit and a CV begin the move together the CV will provide CAP if it is intercepted by enemy air. The combat log under Defender Losses displayed:

Air to Air losses #

This indicates to me that there was air to air combat between the attacking air and the defending air from the CV.
I have done some other testing which you I included in a new post that you might fight interesting. As you no doubt played WPP more than I have (this is my first PBEM) you might be able to confirm or dispute my findings.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:55 pm**

canuckgamer wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:13 pm Thank you for your detailed reply. Yes we have noticed how lethal land based air are in this game. What you are saying then is that if the transported ground unit starts the turn with say CVs then after moving to the beach hex they will be protected by the air of the CV although as you point out the CV air will be outnumbered so the transported unit may still suffer significant damage.

I am running some hot seat tests but it looks to me that a tactic you could use is to move one DD at a time within range of the land based air until it uses up it's 2 successful interceptions. Then you move the transported ground unit along with surface ships for bombardment to the beach hex. This is what I would consider an exploit. A fix for this might be adding a transport as a target toggle so that the land based air will only try to intercept transports. However if that transport is in a fleet with CVs the air from the CVs still should be able to engage in air to air combat before the land based air targets the transport.

Yea it is tough to counter act exploits when the opponent can't make decisions on the enemy turn.

But that is why air gets 2 chances to intercept. It means to suck up both attacks one must bait with 2 small fleets.

But how many 2 DD fleets will it cost you to make an invasion. If they have 2 air that's 4 DD fleets. If there are 3 air that's 6 DD fleets. That is how I worked it. I can't have players making decisions on their enemy's turn so I had to make a detriment for doing such tactics.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:12 pm**

AlvaroSousa wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:55 pm Yea it is tough to counter act exploits when the opponent can't make decisions on the enemy turn.

But that is why air gets 2 chances to intercept. It means to suck up both attacks one must bait with 2 small fleets.

But how many 2 DD fleets will it cost you to make an invasion. If they have 2 air that's 4 DD fleets. If there are 3 air that's 6 DD fleets. That is how I worked it. I can't have players making decisions on their enemy's turn so I had to make a detriment for doing such tactics.

And, in the next patch, a failed Naval Air interdiction won't count anymore. One more exploit removed.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p4984896

Posted: **Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:34 pm**

Then there is the next turn. Fine you bait and land your troops. Now those planes can openly pound the land units or fleets.

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