Matrix Games Forums

Ladies (I know that we have the pleasure of at least one on the forum) and Gents,

We are all enjoying an amazingly rich game, the complexity of which has allowed various unintended exploits which can be used to unreasonably improve your position. If we produce a simple list of these ‘cheats’, players can agree beforehand not to use them in a game. I.e. a list of what is considered to be foul or unsportsmanlike play.

The intention of this list are strategies that go against the spirit of game, and/or are currently not WAD and are actions that all players will wish not have their opponent do:

Thus ‘optional’ things such as TB locked or not will not be on this list.

Nor should ‘uncertain’ strategies (I.e. strategies that have yet to be determined to be unfair) such as the ‘Soviet abandon the south strategy’ be included in the list, but of course these can be separately agreed upon by players.

From reading this forum, I can suggest the following concrete examples:

a) moving good leaders from TB boxes to the map (there is currently no penalty for doing so and is not WAD)
b) breaking down Soviet Corps and rebuilding them to circumvent unit limits
c) moving HQs to swap SUs with another HQ and then undoing the HQ move to return it to the original spot with a full allocation of MP

Hopefully, we as a group can form a consensus as to what should be on the list (or perhaps even decide that building a list is a bad idea)

Over to you for suggestions…

this are only some of our house rules with fracas

also some of them are due an air war mess
- no merging in pockets
- no temp. motorization
- no flak regiments as support units for a units on a map
- no GS/recon in bad weather (heavy rain/blizzard)
- no GA at all (as it is not intercepted, except of 1st turn)
- no usage of transport planes in bad weather (heavy rain/blizzard)
- no dirty abuses with airborne/cav/etc

also we have house rule for no more than 1 AA unit with evil flak 88 (cuz its shred infantry like no tomorrow and is the best Axis defensive weapon ever) per 1 unit in a hex

so it depends of a patch and current state of the game

a) moving good leaders from TB boxes to the map (there is currently no penalty for doing so and is not WAD)

i reported it some time ago and seems to be WAD

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7&t=379772

Stamb wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:54 am

a) moving good leaders from TB boxes to the map (there is currently no penalty for doing so and is not WAD)

i reported it some time ago and seems to be WAD

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10177&t=379772

There is an earlier thread which discussed this. The TB process is destined to be upgraded, though this will be time intensive and a low priority. Joel suggested that leader moves in TB be prohibited by house rule

this is what i would also like to see but on a game lvl
in that case transport planes moves (which are unlocked for an Axis, but locked for a Soviets) and do not contribute to a % in TBs should be also restricted?

Stamb wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:51 am this are only some of our house rules with fracas

also some of them are due an air war mess
- no merging in pockets
- no temp. motorization
- no flak regiments as support units for a units on a map
- no GS/recon in bad weather (heavy rain/blizzard)
- no GA at all (as it is not intercepted, except of 1st turn)
- no usage of transport planes in bad weather (heavy rain/blizzard)
- no dirty abuses with airborne/cav/etc

also we have house rule for no more than 1 AA unit with evil flak 88 (cuz its shred infantry like no tomorrow and is the best Axis defensive weapon ever) per 1 unit in a hex

so it depends of a patch and current state of the game

Thanks for these:

d) no merging in pockets - I agree this sounds a bit dirty and should be on list

Temp motorisation - I see this as an optional preference
AA guns - jury seems to be still out on 88s. I don’t see a problem with flak in general, units need to be able to defend themselves from air attack.
GS/GA is a significant part of game, I think it belongs in optional bucket, but I’m open to others opinion.
Air recon in bad weather, I’ve never tried it. I assume it suffers horrible operational losses, what do others think?
Dirty use of airborne/cav - please specify what you mean?

flak 88 is fine vs air
but it is pretty game breaking, imho, for a ground battles and it is a reason for house rule
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7&t=383416
also flak regiment should be not able to act as SU, it was said by a dev

GA/GS/recon/transport planes are under such restrictions cuz i did not notice any difference in ops losses in blizzard as they are the same as in clear weather which is very broken

airborne brigades can be used to create rifle guard divisions so you can get many guard units basically for free
and you can make infinity cavalry divisions by creating cav corps and splitting it into divs

i did not test this last two abuses, but first one is described in a manual and second one was verified by another player

in the end there will be no universal list
as each player has his own preferences

the most common are no motorization, no para drops, no amphibious invasions

jasonbroomer wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:30 am Ladies (I know that we have the pleasure of at least one on the forum) and Gents,

We are all enjoying an amazingly rich game, the complexity of which has allowed various unintended exploits which can be used to unreasonably improve your position. If we produce a simple list of these ‘cheats’, players can agree beforehand not to use them in a game. I.e. a list of what is considered to be foul or unsportsmanlike play.

The intention of this list are strategies that go against the spirit of game, and/or are currently not WAD and are actions that all players will wish not have their opponent do:

Thus ‘optional’ things such as TB locked or not will not be on this list.

Nor should ‘uncertain’ strategies (I.e. strategies that have yet to be determined to be unfair) such as the ‘Soviet abandon the south strategy’ be included in the list, but of course these can be separately agreed upon by players.

From reading this forum, I can suggest the following concrete examples:

a) moving good leaders from TB boxes to the map (there is currently no penalty for doing so and is not WAD)
b) breaking down Soviet Corps and rebuilding them to circumvent unit limits
c) moving HQs to swap SUs with another HQ and then undoing the HQ move to return it to the original spot with a full allocation of MP

Hopefully, we as a group can form a consensus as to what should be on the list (or perhaps even decide that building a list is a bad idea)

Over to you for suggestions…

OK if there are ladies that actually playing this game and that are on the forum, I applaud them and encourage more to join in on this great game.

Sir has a humble PVE player if the AI wishes to pull these stunts so be it because I would be the none wiser and if I did realise I would just work around it and crush the AI anyway.

Also please don't think I am making light of your post, as I really enjoy reading H v H AAR ( and games against the AI )game reports and want the best out of this game, so if bugs , cheats and anything else that is negative to the game can be fixed its a betterment for all players whether they be P v P players or P v E players .

regards

the problem in the end is both player perception of how skewed the game as designed is (if you think its basically ok, then stuff like AA allocation really is a none issue) and the never ending debate where the line sits between creative play and abusing the game system. There is also the issue of some German players looking to 'balance' T1-16 as they never go outside that, when some of those changes could well seriously unbalance the longer game?

of the original list:

b) breaking down Soviet Corps and rebuilding them to circumvent unit limits
c) moving HQs to swap SUs with another HQ and then undoing the HQ move to return it to the original spot with a full allocation of MP

quite frankly are cheating pure and simple. Generating ultra-high cv Soviet armoured formations in early 1941 sits on the border - its an exploit, its not WAD but at the least it comes at a cost.

The HQ leader issue is a bit more debateable (in my view) not least you can do it even with locked TB. And at the moment, I simply wouldn't play with unlocked TB. Not least there are no reported 1941-45 games with that set up, so who knows what problems it can open up in the mid/late game.

A good rule of thumb for me re house rules is 'is it bloody obvious its happening ... and can't happen by mistake'? If not, then they can add more problems than they solve, or end up being used to mask an unwillingness to engage with the game design (and I realise that some things in some patches really are best not done).

Stamb mentions the airborne-Gds division exploit, that one has been closed. Seems the Soviets can no longer build airborne brigades (at least looking at a late 42 save) so they have to make a decision about the few that survive the forced conversion in early 43. Make them into Gds rifle or keep them as an airborne asset. Of course if, for some reason, you've banned air drops then this is a bit of a non-decision.

I still think the best solution is to play with someone you know and trust. In the end if you are serious about playing the full campaign that is going to be close to 2 years of interacting with each other. You can always test compatibility with a scenario, in WiTE1 I used to use Road to Smolensk for this. It was decently balanced so gave you a feel for mutual ability, quick but large enough to demand some effort. But if someone can't cope with me chuntering about ferries, Gaelic, land reform and the Northern Lights around a turn commentary its prob best not to bother.

Roger

Stamb wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:51 am this are only some of our house rules with fracas

also some of them are due an air war mess
- no merging in pockets
- no temp. motorization
- no flak regiments as support units for a units on a map
- no GS/recon in bad weather (heavy rain/blizzard)
- no GA at all (as it is not intercepted, except of 1st turn)
- no usage of transport planes in bad weather (heavy rain/blizzard)
- no dirty abuses with airborne/cav/etc

also we have house rule for no more than 1 AA unit with evil flak 88 (cuz its shred infantry like no tomorrow and is the best Axis defensive weapon ever) per 1 unit in a hex

so it depends of a patch and current state of the game

1. No temp motorisation

I'm struggling to have enough trucks to cover my regular standard Inf Div's in game the last thing I have on my mind is Temp Motorisation, though I don't disagree with you in a H V H match.

2. Transport planes in bad weather

I sent in a report on losing massive amounts of transports ( including bombers on transport duty ) in bad weather ( using AI assist ) because the AI would send them off to die when they landed at level 1 airfields, the reply from the DEV's was they see the issue but are not certain how to go about telling the AI to stop flying in bad weather to level 1 airfields and losing planes, now granted that was some time ago and things might be in place to fix it.

A H V H player game that might be a different if there do manual control of there Air Force.

3. The 88's

Thanks for the tip on the 88's, I just send all flak units ( including 88's ) from reserve onto the map and let OKH send them off to Armee's, they could end up anywhere.

Again would like to point out not making light of your post.

regards

jasonbroomer wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:07 am

Stamb wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:54 am

a) moving good leaders from TB boxes to the map (there is currently no penalty for doing so and is not WAD)

i reported it some time ago and seems to be WAD

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7&t=379772

There is an earlier thread which discussed this. The TB process is destined to be upgraded, though this will be time intensive and a low priority. Joel suggested that leader moves in TB be prohibited by house rule

I have been tempted many a time to send Rommel to Russia to see what he can do on the Eastern Front, but as you say and I have also read in a thread some time back that this kind of leader transfer will be looked into, which I do agree with.

Hans-Jürgen von Arnim is no substitute for commanding " Army Group Africa ".

Specifically you don't want to merge divisions in pockets that were opened on that turn. I don't think excess elements will teleport into the production pools if the pocket is still closed when merging.

AA Regiment or larger not to be used as combat SU is valid for both sides, soviet have large AA units too.

Jango32 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:51 am Specifically you don't want to merge divisions in pockets that were opened on that turn. I don't think excess elements will teleport into the production pools if the pocket is still closed when merging.

Yeah, the units will just accumulate loads of damaged elements but not send them off-map if the pocket is still sealed.

jasonbroomer wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:30 am a) moving good leaders from TB boxes to the map (there is currently no penalty for doing so and is not WAD)

What leaders were you concerned about? Witzleben? Dollmann?

Germany has plenty of outstanding leaders in their pool already. Plus if Germany is blowing APs on moving those TB leaders, they are going to be hurting for them later.

jasonbroomer wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:30 am c) moving HQs to swap SUs with another HQ and then undoing the HQ move to return it to the original spot with a full allocation of MP

Wow, learned something new. Didn't know you could do this.

Personally, I would limit the following:

---

1. Impromptu unit motorization.
(the opposing player would have to agree to pay for my lunch via UberEats on each instance)
2. Airborne operations.

---

Regarding the Flak Regiment, yeah they are really OP and scary.

---

Tell you what Stamb, I will challenge you and play the Soviets. You can bring over as much Flak as you want.

DarkHorse2 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:07 pm ...
Tell you what Stamb, I will challenge you and play the Soviets. You can bring over as much Flak as you want.

Only in 02.06beta + 200 logistics for the Axis
Otherwise i see no reasons to risk with my mental health

I still don't see the problem about using the AA 88s as support units and involved in an AT role. They were first used during the invasion of France in an AT role, and in Africa well before Barbarossa. https://ww2db.com/weapon.php?q=98
Historically there is no reason to consider it foul play

they are fine
but not flak regiments that were supposed to be used in a cities, as far as i understand

I believe the problem or better the 'point' is that in '41 there is no real bombing campaign from the Allies. And even late game it is not sure how much flak regiments deployed there affect bombing.

If a player does not know or does not feel / perceive a difference, they won't put regiments in Cities or send them to the West TB.

If you were to know that Bombing Run in '42 Hits target A B and C and targets suffer Random(20) damage [Numbers are an example - I do not know real numbers of stuff]; but if any target has a Flak Regiment in it, the damage done diminishes by 5... Players have something to work with.
And a decision to make.

But as it is now if there is no manifest or evident benefit the Flak Regiment is a regiment of extra troops.
It's way less game-breaking than the Soviet Brigades being used as SUs - twicefold so when 3 of them can get in a Soviet Corps (and then player stacks 3 corps in 1 hex)