DavidDailey wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:43 pm
Having been stopped attacking France by massive numbers of English and Common Wealth units rushed to the country I am perplexed about how to counter it. Believe me, I am not delaying my attack.
David, this is a terrifying strategy and given what I know, I'm concerned myself on how to counter it. Believe me, I think I've perfected this strategy and I wouldn't want to go against it.
A few things to identify in measuring the possibility of an ALL-IN:
- If England had the Viceroy Declare War in India, you are definitely looking at a prerequisite for an ALL-IN. Unfortunately, almost every player does this but there are some that prefer a firmer India if things go south in the Pacific.
- If your opponent is throwing English on the front line in France and you spot more British troops than just the handful given by the British DE, you might be looking at an ALL-IN. It's a very strong leaning, but the goal might be to just drag things further out.
- If the combined fleet of France and England come with everything they got to wipe out your Italian Fleet, you are definitely looking at an ALL-IN.
- If you see Common Wealth and WDF forces in France, you are definitely looking at an ALL-IN.
Some more key indicators:
- British constantly leading the attacks and moving in to shield the French, preventing French losses at every turn.
- French units moving in for most of the killing blows to Italian and German units. This raises French Morale significantly (since they have a smaller pool that was designed to fail) and is a primary driver in keeping them going. The French love finishing off Italian battleships. The morale boost lifts them quite rapidly, as well as losses lower their National Morale just as fast.
DavidDailey wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:43 pmI am in Belgium as fast as possible and even in France, but there is snow to deal with and it is necessary to spend time upgrading units.
I highly suggest you look at this video that was recommended to me by the OCB. The idea is to get Poland in one turn! I can't think of a better counter to the ALL-IN than narrowing the time the allies have in loading France. Being a turn sooner to attack France is actually pretty jarring.
The upgrading of units in the research department is for future fights but not likely to change what happens in the coming summer. Buy as many tanks as you can first but also consider the third airborne (see below), then research. Cut research to rockets and subs to free up needed points and get your units ready for the fight ASAP.
DavidDailey wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:43 pmWhat are the timelines to be in certain spots and how is it done?
The game has variable weather and this makes it dicey to declare time tables. You want Netherlands, Belgium and Lux in your pocket by Late Winter '39/Early Spring '40. The weather can decline that possibility, but having an extra turn given your "one turn Poland take" will give you more chances to act if fairer weather returns.
DavidDailey wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:43 pmAlso, is an airborne invasion of England a possible counter when confronted with this?
I will address this question carefully and the answer is absolutely,
no! I do not think invading England will help your dilemma.
A few reasons:
- the biggest first, England has completely foregone its tech tree. They're committed to just building units and replacing the ones they've lost in France. This means that every 1-3 turns London and the other two ports cities in southern England will most likely have troops there, destined for France. Most likely one Army and two Corps. These forces will clobber you.
- you've just decreased the USA and USSR's time table to enter the fight. This is a dreadful predicament, as your invasion of Russia will most likely turn completely around to a summer invasion of Poland by the USSR. There is also ramifications for the Japanese.
- You've just guaranteed you won't take France anytime soon. If this strat is played as well as it could then you should be having a hell of a time keeping units together at full strength, especially your Luftwaffe. The Allies are keen to have their air force at full strength: to then get the opportunity to repair their bombers and bust your tanks. Every unit and plane you take out of the conflict for France allows the French time to repair. You don't want that.
- There'll be a LOT of home guard garrisons that'll seem to be made of granite, standing guard at every step of the way. Supply issues are also terrible in England and the weather with the R.A.F. will be ever vigilant. If its just a paratroop there for a london grap than I guess you could say, "Mission Accomplished" but you'll later suffer the nagging desire to put one more troop into England and thus perpetuating a side show that doesn't get you France.
- And even if you do take London, the Capital just moves north a ways. You're still screwed in France.
What follows are some true counters. Some you just heard above with other posters and others I noticed are absent:
- The sinking of the Italian fleet is perhaps a signature move in taming the Mediterranean for this strat. There are some specific Common Wealth units coming to France's aid and the Italian Fleet is a possible problem for those late units getting there. Wiping the Italian fleet out solves that problem once and for all and presents some big opportunities for France to raise their National Morale. England is very dense with National Morale and it takes a lot of punishment to move it down, but France is very glassey. In order for it to defeat the Germans, their Morale has to survive numerous hits that are HUGE. They need victories in the form of sunken Italian ships (if possible) to raise their morale just enough to weather the scripted Morale hits and their battlefield losses. In this ALL-IN Mediterranean strat, the Italian Fleet is certainly doomed but its preferable that you "lose" your fleet to British ships,
not French ones. Key thing: stay in port. Keep your German Fighters close to where the British Carriers are likely to attack and make them suffer. Bleed those British Carriers for every plane you can and never let a French ship kill a single Italian one.
- At sea you will need to get your German Fleet out sometime near or before Italian entry into the war. Your subs are the only way you can offset an ALL-IN strat
passively. It goes without saying that all dollars taken away from England has a cascade effect. Therefore, the German cruiser in South Africa should be employed immediately to bar South Africa's port. You must also put the other two ships in the N. Atlantic right to use and hurt those British. Money taken away from the English early means less money for this strat as a net total. But be wary you are the mouse and the allied player will deal with this threat up to Spring 1940 with ease. Afterwards, if the British and French go ALL-IN to the Med, your German Fleet will then have the opportunity to punish England economically while they're busy wiping out the Italian Navy. The British have to bring a sizable number of destroyers to the Mediterranean in order to deal with the two Italian Subs (they are highest on the kill list). This means your German Capital ships will easily smash any lone destroyers during that 1940 Summer.
- The allied ALL-IN strat doesn't account for Naval losses. The British Fleet and their Naval Air Forces cannot be replaced without taking away from France, so any damage to their units at sea will most likely remain so until France falls. The sinking of a French ship is a big win, but only if you can absolutely get away with it without giving the French their own victory of sinking one of yours, a tit-for-tat situation. The ALL-IN player in France may not go after the Italian Fleet (applying their carriers against land in France), but this most likely means they'll move their sea lanes and receive reduced income. It also means that you can be more aggressive in Africa.
- If they do go after the Italian fleet and the matter is settled, get your German navy to safety. Your U-boats will most likely be running dry anyhow, but at least you'll have Norway by then. If you've dealt with whatever Destroyers came your way while the British Fleet is sinking Italians, put your German capital ships on Raid. Again, economic damage to England is the only way to
passively hurt this strat and give your land forces an edge. I wouldn't lose my German Navy over it because the French are keen to get Morale boosts from sinking them.
- France is the battlefield and you don't win it by prioritizing British units over French ones. An ALL-IN player knows that French losses
doom the entire enterprise. I really don't understand the advice given by a certain poster as to killing British as a priority. The British are the ones that can take such losses throughout the entire conflict without it significantly effecting their unit morale. They are a pillar and an obstacle but they aren't where your Germans will get traction. Killing French must be your priority for two reasons: the French can't reinforce their reduced units easily and their National Morale being lowered effects the damage they deal and the amount of damage they take. This isn't true in the case of the British. In fact, British losses are going through a constant recycling period of using the same units over and over as this ALL-IN drags on. Once the investment is put in (the British purchased a new Army and some 4-5 Corps), they'll be building those units again and again throughout the entire conflict at half price with twice the speed.
That is the trick to this ALL-IN pony. The British can withstand and will take terrible losses (which minutly effects their National Morale) but they'll persist, waiting for opportunities to inflict grevious damage on your Wehrmacht, just so a French unit can get in there and slap a German for a Morale Boost (when it pops). This strat is all about the British fighting for the French with the French taking credit for it. Ruthlessly kill all French units first, whenever you get the chance.
- Minimize your losses in France. It's easy to say but very hard to do. The worst thing you can do is leave your tanks in open terrain. The British Strategic Bomber attacks your tank directly when it's not in a city. Your German tanks are also high priority targets and will be decimated at every turn if its within the allies capability to do so. Be wary of the time and when the DE happens where the US fulfills aircraft orders for France. I always say yes to allowing that order to be fulfilled. It takes work to get those planes up into France and at full strength but the British got it covered.
- Your Italians are probably shut out if the ALL-IN Navy landed on your head but that doesn't mean you can't apply dreadful pressure in North Africa if you moved your HQ, Armies and tanks there in advance. I think a lot of players emphasize on Ethiopia but really, the ALL-IN strat fears a more direct approach from Libya into Egypt. The British really can't be bothered with much other than applying excruciating pressure in France (which is all the marbles). So, aside from the usual muscle to keep up appearences in Southern France, you may find the British a bit more under-manned in Egypt than usual. The turmoil caused by your sluggish advance from Tobruk will have dividends in the Iraq coup and this will help some, in reducing the British money, but seeing "just Italians" over running Cairo will be very hard for the British to stomach. Some players think this game is about balances which must be maintained in all theatres (as if doing so is about keeping all your opportunities open for later stages of the game) but that isn't true with this ALL-IN strat. If the Allies win the battle for France, the game is over. End of story. So, advance your Italians in North Africa with confidence and don't be disappointed when you come up against significant resistance. That resistance isn't in France and that is already a win. But most likely the Western Defense Force is out to lunch in France and your Italian Medium Bomber will probably be enough to march through those Freebie British units tasked in defending Egypt. Expect your Italians to have a greater edge against British ones because there will be a LOT of dead British Troops in France and they won't be upgrading their troops beyond the first one they got for free when the game began. Get your Italian tank down there too before the Allies have too many ships clogging the sea lanes. Commiting to Ethiopia before an ALL-IN is appraised will most likely lead to regrets of what you could've done.
- Your Airborne troops are not to be wasted on a melodramtic attacks behind the maginot line. Its ok to use your Airborne when you're seeing the French lines crumble but they are not, by any means, a way to lower French Morale unless you're certain they'll link up with your main force. There is no better past time for the French, than surrounding an airborne unit near the Maginot line and waiting for them to become zero supply. The French then get the National Morale points and this reward exceeds the loss of whatever interior city that was taken. You have to be really winning to apply Airborne near the front lines. However, the far rear lines are a different story. I highly suggest getting the third Airborne if you don't know the trick. You purchase the one available Airborne right after Poland falls and then you get the other two from the qeue. This nets you
three airborne (though if you lose one, you'll never be able to buy the third again for the rest of the game). Which brings me to the point: an airborne attack using the three in Southern France (via Italy) will create an unnerving and unbalancing situation. Such an attack would require the Luftwaffe to throw down all it has up north so the English fighters are exhausted before these units deploy. But once they've landed in Southern France, they could just roam and take cities or camp out until the supply raises from where they're holding up. This brings some interesting posibilities like attacking HQs at the rear or linking up with Italian Forces to the East. Let's be clear, airborne units are shock and awe units that are "siege breakers," and when it comes to softening enemy units readiness and morale, their ability to make possible what was once impossible might give your Italians the edge needed to break out. But, if the Allies so wish it, they could destroy all three with some effort. The question is: at what cost? This particular counter strat should be applied when you've delivered significant losses to the British, specifically. They'd most likely be the police force that'd have to come clean up this mess. And naturally, the British forces applied against your airborne would be absent elsewhere.
Final thoughts:
French National Morale is the only consideration that this strat makes, in whatever it does. If you can get that reduced by any means, I encourage it. The damage and destruction of French units with the loss of French cities is the deciding factor. It was always just that. France is a mini-game unto itself but the longer you play it, the more dire the consequences become in the greater picture. If you haven't seen a major breakthru with them giving up massive territory by '40 summer's end, you've lost. The winter won't offer anything promising but it will give the allies better defense against you. The summer of '41 comes too fast and if you can finish the job at that time, it won't matter anyway because Stalin will begin his offensive by Aug-Sep '41 without you.
The most difficult thing about all this is staying cohesive with such a tiny budget to replace losses. The Germans just have to use those early successes (with its profits) to keep the momentum up and the replacements coming. The moment you have to wait for "next turn" to repair badly damaged tanks is when the time just runs away from you. It's very subtle but its sliding away. Your planes are looking shabby at 7's. Your men are looking worn at 6-8's and somehow you just don't have enough to keep them all up. Destroyed a lot of English units but they just seem to keep slipping in...
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