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I suppose that we will get a way to use waypoints like in the old game eventually... I think this will introduce some issues with not moving between systems using manual fleets will exploit this allot more than you do now. Now you simply don't do it because it is to much work.

Well... I for one would like that ending your jump in middle of nowhere perhaps should increase the cooldown and spin up of the jump drives by say five times or some such. This probably would in most cases make trying to cut the corners less of an issue.

Another perhaps better way could be to lower the speed by half if you jump to empty space or start in an empty space area. You probably could technobabble this as star gravity having a slingshot effect on the jump drives or something.

In any way... I like for the travel between stars to actually have an in game reason outside being automatically forced to do it unless you don't.

I personally would like the speed reduction more as that also impact fuel economy worse as well.

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:26 pm Now you simply don't do it because it is to much work.

Well, sometimes the "through-systems" paths chosen by the game are so bad, that in certain situations I do manually control how fleets travel to reach their destination, one jump at a time. Not fun, but sometimes necessary in the current state of the game. Have you seen some of the crazy paths reported in the support section of the forum? I've encountered many, including in my current game.

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:26 pm I think this will introduce some issues

If by "issues" you mean that the human player will be better than the AI at moving fleets, yes, for sure. But if pathfinding is improved enough, it shouldn't be too much of an advantage. I don't remember it being a problem in DW:U (granted, it's been a while since I've played it, so I might be wrong about that).

I think that in general, trying to improve the AI is highly preferable to limiting the human player to compensate for the AI's weaknesses. Easier said than done, for sure, but better nonetheless. For instance, a decent human player will be better at micromanaging ships in battles. Does that mean that some game mechanism should be put in place to hinder that ability? Or should the focus be instead on improving the AI's ability to manage ships in battle?

Having said that, if you still want to limit your advantage over the AI in managing travels efficiently, why not then an option in the game to do it? That would allow the players that want to "punish" out-of-systems travel to do so, and players who don't to not do it.

Well... it is not the ONLY reason for why I think it should be done. I want there to be a reason why ships want to go from systems to system and not just plot a straight line to where they want to go... plotting a straight line should make pathfinding ALLOT easier too if this is an issue for the AI.

Therefore make plotting distances on empty space reduce speed so there is an in game lore AND game mechanic reason to use this otherwise weird pathing in the game.

It make no sense to use it otherwise.

If the current system doesn't make sense (and I think we both agree that it doesn't), why ask for changes to make it looks as if it does (a form of auto-hypnosis)? Why not ask for a better freer system, à la DW:U?

To me, it's like going in a restaurant and being served food that clearly doesn't taste right, and instead of asking for another plate, one would ask for strong spices to hide the taste!

Of course, asking for a better system doesn't guarantee we'll get it. But I'd say it's better than to ask for stronger spices.

Because I think they want to keep jumping between system to be a thing. I'm not against that being a thing in and of itself.

I just want there to be some game mechanic reason for this to be a thing... not just a thing without any logic behind it.

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:21 pm Because I think they want to keep jumping between system to be a thing. I'm not against that being a thing in and of itself.

I just want there to be some game mechanic reason for this to be a thing... not just a thing without any logic behind it.

So, if I understand you correctly, we do not entirely agree that the current system (jumping through systems) doesn't make sense. You'd be OK with it if some change(s) would make it look and feel more logical to you. If that's the case, then we see things differently on that point (and it's OK ).

I do not like space lines. I find that they're too limiting in term of tactics and strategy, which makes things too predictable. I stayed away from Stellaris and other games because of their use of space lines (or similar mechanisms).

Granted, with DW2 we're far from a Stellaris-like situation. But the move toward traveling through systems doesn't enchant me. Far from it. I really hope it doesn't become the only way to travel in future instances of the game.

So, I hope you'll understand if I'm not enthusiastic for things that would make space lines more "acceptable" or "palatable".

How on earth can we go from jumping between systems being the most efficient way to that being some form of major limitation?!?

You could still travel in a straight line it just would be slower... meaning that it would have some tactical purpose at times.

Nothing about that system would limit you in any way shape of form from how it works now... the only difference would be that both options are viable for different reasons. As it is now... only one option is viable as the other is just straight up worse, in that case it should not exist as a feature.

But we probably just have to agree to disagree on this point I guess...

The other point is AI... we don't need more ways to be more efficient than the AI. Using game mechanics against the AI just is not needed nor wanted in my opinion.

I agree with 100th.

We need wayfinding to work properly before anything else is added.

Besides I like open movement. I dont like star lanes. This sounds too much like star lanes by the back door.

Anyway speed changes would not make sense, once they are hypering they would surely fly at the same speed in deep space as if they had left a system.

If you wanted to add some kind of gravity based texture it would make more sense if there was an energy penalty to initiating hyper jumps in a low G environment, requiring more energy to start a jump which ends up as a fuel cost with a recharge time. It would also have tactical implications for short jumps from deep space as it would drain the capacitor. But lets get wayfinding fixed first.

boolybooly wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:24 pm I agree with 100th.

We need wayfinding to work properly before anything else is added.

Besides I like open movement. I dont like star lanes. This sounds too much like star lanes by the back door.

Anyway speed changes would not make sense, once they are hypering they would surely fly at the same speed in deep space as if they had left a system.

If you wanted to add some kind of gravity based texture it would make more sense if there was an energy penalty to initiating hyper jumps in a low G environment, requiring more energy to start a jump which ends up as a fuel cost with a recharge time. It would also have tactical implications for short jumps from deep space as it would drain the capacitor. But lets get wayfinding fixed first.

And I agree with you 100%.
You hit it on the spot.
The problem right now, that is how it looks for me, are the nebulas that slow the travel speed down. Than there is because of this the pathfinding. It is even only 2D, but somehow tricky for the game/programmers. A straight line is easy, and I also do not need a lore to explain why the ships do not fly beside the gas cloud and from there travel further.
If you look at the X series.. the autopilot never, up to this day, is able to fly safe through a system.

Then the game should not force ships to jump between systems as that make no sense what so ever, that is all I try to say.

I don't personally care which ever way it is done... i just don't like it when the human player are given advantages that is completely unnecessary because of badly implemented game mechanics.

Once we get to use waypoints I would NEVER jump between systems EVER with my fleets as I mostly guide my fleets manually. When you have them on automated or the AI use theirs they are somehow restricted to jump between systems... why?!?

This makes very little sense...

I don't agree that reduced speed is in any way shape or form even remotely the same as star lanes... not even a little... you are still free to move anywhere you want. It just is faster to move between systems so it become more efficient to do so in normal cases.

Do you actually want to be given this unfair advantage over the AI, is it really necessary?
It is hard to make a competent AI as it is.

I think consistency is a reasonable expectation. Either both the player and AI should be restricted to system to system jumps (or, penalized for non system jumps), or both should utilize free space in their optimal path finding. Personally I prefer the minor restriction of near system jumps being encouraged, as I think it's a good mechanic to discourage OCD and cost free micromanagement of jumps.

Related to hyperdrive behavior - I can't wait for the mod that imposes gravity wells as a constraint on hyperdrive jumps near systems. I.e. you can jump into any point in a system, but jumping out requires being around the edge of the system. There was a great mod for this in DWU which made progress in engine research so much more meaningful, and changed strategic considerations with system defense and attacks.

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:56 pm How on earth can we go from jumping between systems being the most efficient way to that being some form of major limitation?!?

I wasn't referring to what you're proposing, I was referring to "space lanes". When they're used in games, they limit attack tactics and make defense much easier. I could live with what you're proposing, it's just that instead of attempting to accommodate "travel through systems", I'd prefer if it was abandoned completely to revert to a free-travel system.

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:56 pm The other point is AI... we don't need more ways to be more efficient than the AI. Using game mechanics against the AI just is not needed nor wanted in my opinion.

I agree: you don't want to put in place mechanics that gives advantages to human over the AI. But that's exactly what the "travel through systems" does!

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:47 am Then the game should not force ships to jump between systems as that make no sense what so ever, that is all I try to say.

I agree again. 100%! We disagree on what to do about it: accomodate that bad system, or get rid of it.

If the reason you want to accomodate that bad system is that you've heard from Erick or Elliot that there's no way in hell that the system would ever be changed, that's one thing. But I didn't hear or read that. Have you?

Not having read or heard that, I start from the premise that, Erick and Elliot being intelligent people interested in making DW2 as good as it can get, it might be possible to convince them that it's not a good system. If they DID say that it will never be changed, than yes, what you suggest, or some other mechanism to reach the same goal ("punishing" free travel) should be put in place.

boolybooly wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:24 pm This sounds too much like star lanes by the back door.

Exactly! If ever DW2 becomes "star lanes" only, I would almost certainly stop playing it.

No... I don't think they said that the current system could not be changed. But I sort of presume that they did this for a reason as they liked that ships would jump from system to system rather than into empty space. This was part of the new jump range restriction mechanic.

My presumption are that the jump range would not be as interesting as a mechanic if they did not jump between systems. If they did not jump between systems all it does is make trips take longer. If you need to jump between systems, most of the time, it does add an additional tactical layer in defence and strategy. Although you would not be forced to at a cost.

This is why I don't think that it is a bad idea, as it does add some tactical choices. I mean... to jump between systems as you do now. The issue as we all agree on is that there is no penalty for not doing it currently, which means that not doing it is just better in all ways except from a micromanagement perspective.

If we could just go from point A to B with an occasional stop... then why have the stop and not just a slightly slower drive and no stop... it is functionally the same thing... more or less. There is almost no chance in hell anyone will be close to where you drop out of space anyway unless they start at the same point and go to the same destination, which will be quite rare.

Forcing to jump through systems as the fastest route will throttle ships through systems and leave them vulnerable, this would be important for pirates and patrol to work to some degree. Or to ambush a fleet that is using system movement. Now you have the option and tactical decision to not use system travel but with reduced range and speed... or travel through systems at greater speed and range but more susceptible to interception.

If we just go from point A to point B in a straight line we will loose some fidelity in the system that can be used to more interesting effects. Jump range pretty much would not matter at all. That is, at least, my opinion. This is also what I believe the developers had as their intentions as to why the ships jump between systems and not in a straight line. So this might be a system they intend to expand on in the future as well in some form.