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Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:34 am
by canuckgamer
Here is a screenshot of the eastern front in our PBEM game and as you can see another 10 Russian armies surrounded. It's only the 3rd turn of the Axis summer offensive and even though the Russians were stronger than last game at the start of the first clear weather turn the result is even worse than last game. The Germans are stronger, move faster, have much higher efficiency and total air superiority so no surprise as to what happens. You can also see that of the 7 visible German tank corps, 6 of them have the infiltrator specialty.
My friend and I have been gaming together for over 40 years and are evenly matched but we can see that this game is going to end up like the last one with the Axis controlling all three major cities and the Caucasus oil fields. This imbalance on the eastern front also leads to 1942 invasions of France which is not historical. Last game I invaded in Brittany and the Pas de Calais in 42. The latter invasion was wiped out quickly while the first one was stalemated for a while. The Germans were easily able to rail a couple of tank units to the west.
I think one the reason why the Axis can destroy the Russians in 42 is that the supply lines have all advanced to the front lines. I know the rail conversion was slowed down in an update but that only impacts 1941 up to the winter. Maybe the proposed tactic of retreating and leaving a ZOC between the Russian front line and the German one will help but the Russians can only retreat so far. It's too bad because we both like the game which we think has some very innovative ideas.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:09 am
by ncc1701e
Could you please post screenshots of the following screens?
1. Russian production screen. How many PP they have each turn?
2. Russian convoy screen. How many PP they received from UK and USA each turn?
3. Forces screen.
4. Casualties screen.
5. Russian deployment queue. What are you producing right now for the Soviets?
6. Which patch level are you using?
7. Was it an all in Barbarossa? Meaning the Germans did not invade Greece or North Africa?
8. Which date Barbarossa was started? Before June 1941?
9. Did you disband all your Soviet air forces to gain much needed PP? I see only one plane in your screenshot.
Alvaro needs data.
Thanks
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:19 am
by ncc1701e
On a side note, this is July 1942. You can't expect stopping the Germans at Kursk by poor experienced entrenched units. I also see two paratroopers around...
And you should really try this new mod:
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:44 pm
by AlvaroSousa
Did they blow away the entire Southern line in the same turn?
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:06 pm
by canuckgamer
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:09 am
Could you please post screenshots of the following screens?
1. Russian production screen. How many PP they have each turn?
2. Russian convoy screen. How many PP they received from UK and USA each turn?
3. Forces screen.
4. Casualties screen.
5. Russian deployment queue. What are you producing right now for the Soviets?
6. Which patch level are you using?
7. Was it an all in Barbarossa? Meaning the Germans did not invade Greece or North Africa?
8. Which date Barbarossa was started? Before June 1941?
9. Did you disband all your Soviet air forces to gain much needed PP? I see only one plane in your screenshot.
Alvaro needs data.
Thanks
I have attached the Russian production screen, Forces screen, and Casualties screen.
5. I am producing one army per turn.
6. We are using 1.00.18.01 - We did install the hotfix but I believe the game will still show .01
7. The Axis invaded and conquered Yugoslavia and Greece. By Africa I assume you mean Jordan and Syria which they did not invade.
8 Barabarossa was on the June 20th turn
9. I did not disband the Soviet air force. I did that last game but I consider it "gamey" and wanted to see how it would work out without doing that. The fact that people do that is another indication that there is an issue with the eastern front. The reason why you only see one plane is that I moved all the planes that were signficantly damaged to the east to preserve them.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:08 pm
by canuckgamer
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:09 am
Could you please post screenshots of the following screens?
1. Russian production screen. How many PP they have each turn?
2. Russian convoy screen. How many PP they received from UK and USA each turn?
3. Forces screen.
4. Casualties screen.
5. Russian deployment queue. What are you producing right now for the Soviets?
6. Which patch level are you using?
7. Was it an all in Barbarossa? Meaning the Germans did not invade Greece or North Africa?
8. Which date Barbarossa was started? Before June 1941?
9. Did you disband all your Soviet air forces to gain much needed PP? I see only one plane in your screenshot.
Alvaro needs data.
Thanks
Here is the third screenshot since posting it on my initial reply exceeded the limit.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:25 pm
by canuckgamer
AlvaroSousa wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:44 pm
Did they blow away the entire Southern line in the same turn?
No, it took 2 turns. At the end of the first turn there was a huge hole from Stalingrad to Voronezh and about 5 or 6 Soviet armies surrounded. After the second turn, an additional 10 Soviet armies were surrounded. With 10 operational points they can easily move through holes in the line. This last turn I lost a 36 strength point army that surrendered after one 4-1 attack. It was surrounded with no retreat route.
At the end of the winter of 41 I had full strength armies along the entire front and in the south I had a second line about every second hex trying to protect the oilfields so I thought I was in good shape.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:27 pm
by canuckgamer
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:19 am
On a side note, this is July 1942. You can't expect stopping the Germans at Kursk by poor experienced entrenched units. I also see two paratroopers around...
And you should really try this new mod:
What is this new mod all about, game balance? We are going to continue with our current game but once Stalingrad and the oilfields fall I will resign.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:28 pm
by canuckgamer
canuckgamer wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:08 pm
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:09 am
Could you please post screenshots of the following screens?
1. Russian production screen. How many PP they have each turn?
2. Russian convoy screen. How many PP they received from UK and USA each turn?
3. Forces screen.
4. Casualties screen.
5. Russian deployment queue. What are you producing right now for the Soviets?
6. Which patch level are you using?
7. Was it an all in Barbarossa? Meaning the Germans did not invade Greece or North Africa?
8. Which date Barbarossa was started? Before June 1941?
9. Did you disband all your Soviet air forces to gain much needed PP? I see only one plane in your screenshot.
Alvaro needs data.
Thanks
Here is the third screenshot since posting it on my initial reply exceeded the limit.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:21 pm
by canuckgamer
My friend who is playing the Axis has a suggestion. Soviet armies currently cost the same as Allied infantry but are of much lower quality. How about reducing their cost so the Soviets can produce more of them? This would re-create to a degree the seemingly endless "cannon fodder" that the Soviets used on the eastern front.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:48 pm
by Nirosi
I would prefer first to try Flavius solution : bring back 35% national XP and/or increase armor/mech OP faster.
Right now Soviet armies are quite cheap as they cost the same as a UK or US corps but are 20% bigger. I understand that they are much weaker in combat value, but that is only for those converting from low XP rifle corps or been build during summer 1941. By late 41 or very early 42, Soviet national XP has usually reached the same experience as the UK. So for the same price the Soviets do have a much better unit (at least for defense, hard to compare for offense due to the extra allied OP) than the allies.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:50 pm
by ncc1701e
canuckgamer wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:06 pm
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:09 am
5. Russian deployment queue. What are you producing right now for the Soviets?
5. I am producing one army per turn.
Thanks, I really want to see your Russian deployment queue. Usually you can indeed produce one army per turn but my experience is that they are always late when things like this is happening.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:50 pm
by ncc1701e
canuckgamer wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:27 pm
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:19 am
On a side note, this is July 1942. You can't expect stopping the Germans at Kursk by poor experienced entrenched units. I also see two paratroopers around...
And you should really try this new mod:
What is this new mod all about, game balance? We are going to continue with our current game but once Stalingrad and the oilfields fall I will resign.
No, this is just a pure graphical mod. It won't change anything to the based game.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:07 pm
by canuckgamer
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:50 pm
canuckgamer wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:06 pm
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:09 am
5. Russian deployment queue. What are you producing right now for the Soviets?
5. I am producing one army per turn.
Thanks, I really want to see your Russian deployment queue. Usually you can indeed produce one army per turn but my experience is that they are always late when things like this is happening.
The Russian queue screen is attached. In case you are wondering about the supply oilers, the Soviet naval units in the Baltic are at sea with no port since Leningrad fell so I am curious if I can continue to supply them with oilers and what there capabilities are with that type of supply. It isn't very realistic and the rule for naval units should be revised.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:34 pm
by ncc1701e
canuckgamer wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:21 pm
My friend who is playing the Axis has a suggestion. Soviet armies currently cost the same as Allied infantry but are of much lower quality. How about reducing their cost so the Soviets can produce more of them? This would re-create to a degree the seemingly endless "cannon fodder" that the Soviets used on the eastern front.
Yes, this is what I am also suggesting here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p5060027
Just reducing the price of infantry armies to 150 PP like what is done for Soviet air force would give quantities of low quality land units. The solution to Soviets « are always short units ».
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:37 pm
by ncc1701e
Nirosi wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:48 pm
I would prefer first to try Flavius solution : bring back 35% national XP and/or increase armor/mech OP faster.
Right now Soviet armies are quite cheap as they cost the same as a UK or US corps but are 20% bigger. I understand that they are much weaker in combat value, but that is only for those converting from low XP rifle corps or been build during summer 1941. By late 41 or very early 42, Soviet national XP has usually reached the same experience as the UK. So for the same price the Soviets do have a much better unit (at least for defense, hard to compare for offense due to the extra allied OP) than the allies.
A much better unit at least for defense? Well, all Soviet infantry corps or armies have -1 in defense compared to all other countries infantry corps. Looks like this is intent:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5#p5056015
And like you said, Soviet experience is already near 50% end of 1941, early 1942. What is missing is PP to repair existing units and more on map units to rotate them. Taking casualties, repairing, and as such increasing their own experience. For this, we need PP. That's why reducing the infantry army price is a better solution.
Increasing the Soviets to 35% experience and I think they will be too strong too early. I prefer quantities of low quality infantry units to always have another backup line behind. Much more realistic than Germans exploding themselves on a wall of Soviet armies near Kharkov in 1942. They reach Stalingrad and Caucasus. I am under the impression you want them to be blocked on a line Kursk - Kharkov - Rostov in 1942.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:43 pm
by Nirosi
Hum.. are you sure? I only see the -1 artillery in the case of armies. Unless my manual is not up to date...?
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:48 pm
by ncc1701e
Nirosi wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:43 pm
Hum.. are you sure? I only see the -1 artillery in the case of armies. Unless my manual is not up to date...?
Yes, the manual is not good. All errors are here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=390527
I confirm -1 defense for Soviets.
- Defense.JPG (110.27 KiB) Viewed 1597 times
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:53 pm
by Nirosi
Ok thanks. Tougher to evaluate then....
To what level are the +6 strength points compensating for the -1 in defense? My guess is that it will depends of the tech level as the -1 in defense is a huge percentage for 1939 tech but goes does lower for each defense increase.
I'll go check and compare UK corps and USSR armies in 1942 and 1943 scenario as both should have 50% XP unit on map.
Re: Getting Very Frustrating on the Eastern Front
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:10 pm
by Nirosi
Ok, I checked. Had to wait for two turns with the 1942 scenario as there was no 1942 full UK corps on map.
So the results (Combat Value wise) for UK corps vs Soviet armies for Attack-Defense (in open terrain) is (at 50XP each in open terrain) :
1942 : 9-11 for UK vs 10-12 for Soviets
1943 : 10-12 for UK vs 11-13 for Soviets
So I would argue that Soviet units are already cheaper (same price for more effect) and a good bang for the buck (once National XP is 50). Of course, it could still be a solution to make them even cheaper, but I think that the 5% extra XP in 1939 and slightly faster OP improvement could be a better first try before trying that.
Also, thinking out loud here : why not instead reduce to cost of Rifle corps? They are the same price as other small corps (no idea why they are still called large corps) but with 2 less defense and... 3 less of other weapons! Bringing their price dow (to a 100?) could make sense. They will not be that many more on map in 1941 due to logistics, but the Soviet will have a much bigger war chest in reserve for the war when it starts. But I still think that the 35% should be tried first (safer I would say).