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Taken from my server game versus HLYA. I am playing Axis.

HYLA did a 100 bomber/30 escort raid on Tallinn on turn 4 Soviets.

Tallinn had been captured on turn 3, on turn 4 an Axis fighter wing was moved to Tallinn. I made sure that the wing was fully supplied and had air support personnel (it may have had the yellow warning icon suggesting low support levels, I can't remember but the field was certainly functioning). Looking at my turn 5, still no AA guns have been deployed to this airfield, I presume that I have a general shortage of these.

During the enemy phase, I set 2 Air superiority missions, each of 12 planes flying due east towards the Narva river. One flying at 9,000 feet, the other flying at 14,000 feet. These appear to have been executed. (Not to be confused with the AS set in the friendly phase, where 6 planes flew and clashed with Soviet AS around the Narva area).

I am presuming that HLYA flew his bombing via the Gulf of Finland and thus missed much of my AS hexes, however, I should have had 24 fighters flying AS over the Tallinn hex.


As can be seen from the CR, my AS did not intercept on day 1. Of the 32 planes on the ground (despite the fact that 24 should have been flying), I lost 7. Perhaps the rain interfered with my AS and HLYA got lucky both with this, and the effectiveness of the first strike.

On day 2, an air combat took place. 9 Soviet bombers were shot down, at a cost of 1 Axis plane (opps). The Axis suffered further losses on the ground. Bizarrely, the Axis planes flew at 7,000 feet which is neither ordered nor in their AS doctrine


Day 3, was a repeat, though with far higher Axis losses. etc through the week until the Axis air wing is so depleted that it no longer flies.

According to the CR, in total the Soviets lost 10 fighters and 20 bombers. The Axis lost 22 fighters.
Going through the individual battle reports, the Soviets lost 25 due to ops and 31 from air combat. The Axis lost 28 on the ground and 3 from combat.

Extrapolated across the front, the LwF will be made into mince meat before 1941 is through. Perhaps I have been very unlucky and no doubt my results would have been improved if I had extended my AS over the Gulf of Finland.

Questions for inquiring minds:

1. Why did no Axis AS occur on day 1?
2. Why did no Axis aircraft intercept other than those flying AS? Perhaps they were caught on the hop on day 1, but surely they would be ready on day 2.
3. A further wing of 30+ fighters based at Parnu did nothing, why did they not intercept?

Airfields appear to be sitting ducks, even when covered by AS. For the moment, I think it needs house ruling.

I can answer every one of these if you like. Just let me know. Or if you like, I can teach you in private PM's how to counter but I will go over some basics here.

Some key points

1. You can put AA in the air base hex. I am guessing but it looks like from the AA reports you put that AA with ground units. (when there are games that restrict GA on airfields all that extra AA goes to front line units that also have the effect of causing crazy losses on GS. (Thus further issues that will crop up) In my opinion GA on airfield should be in the game because of the reason I just said and when open TB's are used and Axis get a metric crap ton of extra fighters. To thwart GA airfields must have AA in the hex & AS over the Airbase with good range. hat range is a minimum of 6 hexes that I have found. How many Air Groups the player needs will be up to the player to experiment with since I think I know the answer already)




2. Did you have AS set-up for day one flying? AS will always fly every day that you tell it to, or just missed the rolls. Or was the AS to a forward area covering the front and your planes missed their rolls following the flight path(if you have follow flight path checked). Or was the AS just for the target hex?(not the best set-up imo) The best AS to cover an airbase is targeting the AS on the airbase and have a radius out from it with 6 hexes out being optimum from my studies. I think you mentioned this was what you did but maybe shorter range? But the farther out from the airbase the radius the better when setting this up.


3. You flew at 7,000 feet because your fighters came down to the level of my bombers that were flying at that level on my bombing mission. Thus your aircraft are showing where they were fighting and made the rolls to intercept. I have found setting up multiple level altitude AS missions, i.e. 8,000, 16,000, 24,000 to be a good rule of thumb. Setting one AS mission for one altitude will not always do the trick. This is the beauty of the system and what I feel that many players may be missing. I can set my bombers. up to fly in at 5,000 feet and if the opposing player set AS to say 20,000 feet then those planes can miss each other. So you have to be cognitive of AS heights you set up.


4. You did have 4 interceptions in the hex. Sorry, there were 4 air interceptions

Here are the 3 of the 4 air interceptions

Here are the heights of those Air Battles. I did fly by the way of the Gulf of Finland but don't have a picture of it

jasonbroomer wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:53 pm

Extrapolated across the front, the LwF will be made into mince meat before 1941 is through. Perhaps I have been very unlucky and no doubt my results would have been improved if I had extended my AS over the Gulf of Finland.

Questions for inquiring minds:

1. Why did no Axis AS occur on day 1?
2. Why did no Axis aircraft intercept other than those flying AS? Perhaps they were caught on the hop on day 1, but surely they would be ready on day 2.
3. A further wing of 30+ fighters based at Parnu did nothing, why did they not intercept?

Airfields appear to be sitting ducks, even when covered by AS. For the moment, I think it needs house ruling.

@ Extrapolated across the front statement.

The LW can own the skies. I know the LW and what it is capable of, especially with open TB's and all the extra fighters. It is all on how you set it up.


@ As for the questions for inquiring minds #3

Parnu is 8-9 hexes away and without proper warning time and range came into factor there. I am guessing but Joel could probably answer better. If those fighters were at the airbase south of Tallinn (Kuusiku) then those planes probably would have reacted if the warning was sufficient. But I am only guessing here.


In closing I will say that there are "many" moving parts, altitude, plane type, AS, GA, GS, AA that go hand and hand. You have to allocate those accordingly to a defense and offense. Restricting any of these with house rules will have detrimental effects on other parts of the game. All the "cogs" need to work together for efficiency. I say this because after my Beethoven game where he mass bombed my airbases I wanted to know answers. There were none on the forums or elsewhere. I spent "many" hours setting up tests beds and bettering my understanding of the Air War. I was under the impression that the Air War was broken and stated such many times before on the forums. I don't feel that way any more at all and have a very "firm" grasp on the air war mechanics. I am not saying it does not need some tweaks, I am saying that the foundation is very good and need a few improvements. On top of this there are no guides on this other than the few posts that I can tell and those posts are very limited.

"In closing I will say that there are "many" moving parts, altitude, plane type, AS, GA, GS, AA that go hand and hand. You have to allocate those accordingly to a defense and offense. Restricting any of these with house rules will have detrimental effects on other parts of the game. All the "cogs" need to work together for efficiency. I say this because after my Beethoven game where he mass bombed my airbases I wanted to know answers. There were none on the forums or elsewhere. I spent "many" hours setting up tests beds and bettering my understanding of the Air War. I was under the impression that the Air War was broken and stated such many times before on the forums. I don't feel that way any more at all and have a very "firm" grasp on the air war mechanics. I am not saying it does not need some tweaks, I am saying that the foundation is very good and need a few improvements. On top of this there are no guides on this other than the few posts that I can tell and those posts are very limited."


I think we would all benefit if you could post some more tips. I don't spend as much time as I should on air mainly because I don't understand what works.

To have AA on the main airfields is good - but that requires a HQ to be parked there because otherwise to attach and remove AA from an Airfield is AP costy!

Said that - I do not believe it should require massive shennigans of Air Directives to protect an airfield. It is added complexity for the sake of being complex and not for interest of gameplay.
The player should decide where to locate the fighters, and they naturally have a reaction range. There should not be a 'ops we came to bomb and you've not intercepted' in a non surprise turn unless the airfield is litterally -on the borderline- with the enemy.
Radars may not exist but radios do.

Anyhow a GOOD game skips redundant passages in streamlining QUALITY decisions.
A player should not be knowing of the air directives that deeply, your subordinates do it (Air Leaders, etc - do they even matter atm instead?)

I am not gunning at HLYA here but at the game and how it is for the air war. Forcing players to pretty much repeat the same process over and over and over each time an airbase is relocated; and ontop of that since it's a repetitive process, it will become tedious soon enough once 'mastered'. It will also penalize any player that does not know how to.
The game will simply shift to be not about 'who has the best strategy and tactic' but 'which player knows the best the game gimmicks and tricks and inner mechanics'.

Thanks for explaining it - but I do hope it will get changed. It is a chore to me to repeat that through all the turns and rebases just not to get smacked down on the ground for instance.

AlbertN wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:37 pm To have AA on the main airfields is good - but that requires a HQ to be parked there because otherwise to attach and remove AA from an Airfield is AP costy!

Said that - I do not believe it should require massive shennigans of Air Directives to protect an airfield. It is added complexity for the sake of being complex and not for interest of gameplay.
The player should decide where to locate the fighters, and they naturally have a reaction range. There should not be a 'ops we came to bomb and you've not intercepted' in a non surprise turn unless the airfield is litterally -on the borderline- with the enemy.
Radars may not exist but radios do.

Anyhow a GOOD game skips redundant passages in streamlining QUALITY decisions.
A player should not be knowing of the air directives that deeply, your subordinates do it (Air Leaders, etc - do they even matter atm instead?)

I am not gunning at HLYA here but at the game and how it is for the air war. Forcing players to pretty much repeat the same process over and over and over each time an airbase is relocated; and ontop of that since it's a repetitive process, it will become tedious soon enough once 'mastered'. It will also penalize any player that does not know how to.
The game will simply shift to be not about 'who has the best strategy and tactic' but 'which player knows the best the game gimmicks and tricks and inner mechanics'.

Thanks for explaining it - but I do hope it will get changed. It is a chore to me to repeat that through all the turns and rebases just not to get smacked down on the ground for instance.

"Said that - I do not believe it should require massive shennigans of Air Directives to protect an airfield. It is added complexity for the sake of being complex and not for interest of gameplay." Its booring i rather just house rule away most of the airwar and be able to play my turns atleast twice as fast!. I think no GA is a pretty standard house rule nowadays? Nobody likes chores!

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:14 pm Here are the 3 of the 4 air interceptions


Air battle 1.png



Air Battle 2.png



Air battle 3.png

Sorry, I should have defined what I meant by interception. The above I consider to be from AS patrol. Interception is when I mean that the guys on the ground scramble and get into the air.

My effective AS probably only covered your attack on Tallinn. From your postings, I need to trigger an AS patrol 5-6 hexes away from the target to give my guys chance to scramble and intercept from the target airfield? None of this appears to be in the manual...

I confess I'm finding AS very difficult to use given its pitifully short range. This makes it almost unworkable when the front is advancing swiftly.

jasonbroomer wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:49 pm

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:14 pm Here are the 3 of the 4 air interceptions


Air battle 1.png



Air Battle 2.png



Air battle 3.png

Sorry, I should have defined what I meant by interception. The above I consider to be from AS patrol. Interception is when I mean that the guys on the ground scramble and get into the air.

My effective AS probably only covered your attack on Tallinn. From your postings, I need to trigger an AS patrol 5-6 hexes away from the target to give my guys chance to scramble and intercept from the target airfield? None of this appears to be in the manual...

I confess I'm finding AS very difficult to use given its pitifully short range. This makes it almost unworkable when the front is advancing swiftly.

basic interception will key off of AS. If the AS sees and engages the bombers far out the basic interception will take place at a higher rate. Joel has a few posts on this forum about that and can do a search on his write-ups. I believe it is in my AS interception writeup in the War room but could be mistaken.

I had the exact same issue when the game released. I know that pain well. Was a VERY fine post by Jubjub that explained how to use AS to maximum effect to lower AS loses last year. I now use the target of AS as the Airbase itself and expand outward from there to cover the whole front that Jujube showed. The Germans can do it too although a bit harder advancing quickly but 100% can be done. I now only use long range targeted AS deep from an airbase rarely. Just do a search on Jubjub's posts to see the write-up or if you like I can do examples.

This is my AS turn 2 of our game JB. You can see my range from the airfield AS covers the whole front.

AlbertN wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:37 pm To have AA on the main airfields is good - but that requires a HQ to be parked there because otherwise to attach and remove AA from an Airfield is AP costy!

Said that - I do not believe it should require massive shennigans of Air Directives to protect an airfield. It is added complexity for the sake of being complex and not for interest of gameplay.
The player should decide where to locate the fighters, and they naturally have a reaction range. There should not be a 'ops we came to bomb and you've not intercepted' in a non surprise turn unless the airfield is litterally -on the borderline- with the enemy.
Radars may not exist but radios do.

Anyhow a GOOD game skips redundant passages in streamlining QUALITY decisions.
A player should not be knowing of the air directives that deeply, your subordinates do it (Air Leaders, etc - do they even matter atm instead?)

I am not gunning at HLYA here but at the game and how it is for the air war. Forcing players to pretty much repeat the same process over and over and over each time an airbase is relocated; and ontop of that since it's a repetitive process, it will become tedious soon enough once 'mastered'. It will also penalize any player that does not know how to.
The game will simply shift to be not about 'who has the best strategy and tactic' but 'which player knows the best the game gimmicks and tricks and inner mechanics'.

Thanks for explaining it - but I do hope it will get changed. It is a chore to me to repeat that through all the turns and rebases just not to get smacked down on the ground for instance.

A simple AD of AS with the target of the Airbase with 6+ hexes out (minimum of 6 but I would do max range on the 109's they can) will pretty much devastate anything the Soviets throw at it. Very simple to do and no shenanigans. The AA is nice and will eventually show up on its own.

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:15 pm

AlbertN wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:37 pm To have AA on the main airfields is good - but that requires a HQ to be parked there because otherwise to attach and remove AA from an Airfield is AP costy!

Said that - I do not believe it should require massive shennigans of Air Directives to protect an airfield. It is added complexity for the sake of being complex and not for interest of gameplay.
The player should decide where to locate the fighters, and they naturally have a reaction range. There should not be a 'ops we came to bomb and you've not intercepted' in a non surprise turn unless the airfield is litterally -on the borderline- with the enemy.
Radars may not exist but radios do.

Anyhow a GOOD game skips redundant passages in streamlining QUALITY decisions.
A player should not be knowing of the air directives that deeply, your subordinates do it (Air Leaders, etc - do they even matter atm instead?)

I am not gunning at HLYA here but at the game and how it is for the air war. Forcing players to pretty much repeat the same process over and over and over each time an airbase is relocated; and ontop of that since it's a repetitive process, it will become tedious soon enough once 'mastered'. It will also penalize any player that does not know how to.
The game will simply shift to be not about 'who has the best strategy and tactic' but 'which player knows the best the game gimmicks and tricks and inner mechanics'.

Thanks for explaining it - but I do hope it will get changed. It is a chore to me to repeat that through all the turns and rebases just not to get smacked down on the ground for instance.

A simple AD of AS with the target of the Airbase with 6+ hexes out (minimum of 6 but I would do max range on the 109's they can) will pretty much devastate anything the Soviets throw at it. Very simple to do and no shenanigans. The AA is nice and will eventually show up on its own.

I am aware it minimizes the OPs losses but also it dilutes the interception numbers - from German side that they do not have that many fighters.
Besides that it is still a chore to repeat it over and over with each rebase. Especially if a rebaser happens after the Air Phase... one cannot establish AS.

Fighters should -by default- perform patrols regularly from their designated airbase all around. And each hex crossed over enemy territory in normal circumstance should incrtease chances interception.
A player should do less about that micro, and simply take the 'macro' decision. Even altitude is something the 'local commander' should determine and fine tune depending on the air / initiative / whatnot rating of the air commander.

I think the next DLCs for this game should be a fix production, and fix air war. Not extra scenarios. 2 different DLCs.

AlbertN wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:03 pm

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:15 pm

AlbertN wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:37 pm To have AA on the main airfields is good - but that requires a HQ to be parked there because otherwise to attach and remove AA from an Airfield is AP costy!

Said that - I do not believe it should require massive shennigans of Air Directives to protect an airfield. It is added complexity for the sake of being complex and not for interest of gameplay.
The player should decide where to locate the fighters, and they naturally have a reaction range. There should not be a 'ops we came to bomb and you've not intercepted' in a non surprise turn unless the airfield is litterally -on the borderline- with the enemy.
Radars may not exist but radios do.

Anyhow a GOOD game skips redundant passages in streamlining QUALITY decisions.
A player should not be knowing of the air directives that deeply, your subordinates do it (Air Leaders, etc - do they even matter atm instead?)

I am not gunning at HLYA here but at the game and how it is for the air war. Forcing players to pretty much repeat the same process over and over and over each time an airbase is relocated; and ontop of that since it's a repetitive process, it will become tedious soon enough once 'mastered'. It will also penalize any player that does not know how to.
The game will simply shift to be not about 'who has the best strategy and tactic' but 'which player knows the best the game gimmicks and tricks and inner mechanics'.

Thanks for explaining it - but I do hope it will get changed. It is a chore to me to repeat that through all the turns and rebases just not to get smacked down on the ground for instance.

A simple AD of AS with the target of the Airbase with 6+ hexes out (minimum of 6 but I would do max range on the 109's they can) will pretty much devastate anything the Soviets throw at it. Very simple to do and no shenanigans. The AA is nice and will eventually show up on its own.

I am aware it minimizes the OPs losses but also it dilutes the interception numbers - from German side that they do not have that many fighters.
Besides that it is still a chore to repeat it over and over with each rebase. Especially if a rebaser happens after the Air Phase... one cannot establish AS.

Fighters should -by default- perform patrols regularly from their designated airbase all around. And each hex crossed over enemy territory in normal circumstance should incrtease chances interception.
A player should do less about that micro, and simply take the 'macro' decision. Even altitude is something the 'local commander' should determine and fine tune depending on the air / initiative / whatnot rating of the air commander.

I think the next DLCs for this game should be a fix production, and fix air war. Not extra scenarios. 2 different DLCs.

You can set-up an AS after you rebase during the air phase, I do it all the time. So yes turn 1 can be problematic for the Germans but after that the Germans should have no problem getting AS set up correctly.

Playing with "open TB's" the Germans have a metric crap ton of fighters. More than enough to cover all the front with extra left over to rest. Seems most are playing with open TB's now from what I can tell and this game has open TB's. aren't most games now open TB?

Are you sure on the dilution? Or is it a setting that so few fighters are coming in? I personally am able to get numbers where needed. I know of another that can get the numbers.

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:11 pm

AlbertN wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:03 pm

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:15 pm

A simple AD of AS with the target of the Airbase with 6+ hexes out (minimum of 6 but I would do max range on the 109's they can) will pretty much devastate anything the Soviets throw at it. Very simple to do and no shenanigans. The AA is nice and will eventually show up on its own.

I am aware it minimizes the OPs losses but also it dilutes the interception numbers - from German side that they do not have that many fighters.
Besides that it is still a chore to repeat it over and over with each rebase. Especially if a rebaser happens after the Air Phase... one cannot establish AS.

Fighters should -by default- perform patrols regularly from their designated airbase all around. And each hex crossed over enemy territory in normal circumstance should incrtease chances interception.
A player should do less about that micro, and simply take the 'macro' decision. Even altitude is something the 'local commander' should determine and fine tune depending on the air / initiative / whatnot rating of the air commander.

I think the next DLCs for this game should be a fix production, and fix air war. Not extra scenarios. 2 different DLCs.

You can set-up an AS after you rebase during the air phase, I do it all the time. So yes turn 1 can be problematic for the Germans but after that the Germans should have no problem getting AS set up correctly.

Playing with "open TB's" the Germans have a metric crap ton of fighters. More than enough to cover all the front with extra left over to rest. Seems most are playing with open TB's now from what I can tell and this game has open TB's. aren't most games now open TB?

Are you sure on the dilution? Or is it a setting that so few fighters are coming in? I personally am able to get numbers where needed. I know of another that can get the numbers.

I think we're at different levels here. I am speaking in terms of 'player interest' in 'routine senseless micromanagement enforced by game mechanics'.

By what you said in terms of being -optimal- (Which I am not disputing) there is a setup, that needs to be repeated via X clicks required, with each subsequent rebase, etc.
If someone does not know the -optimal- thing, or even knows wrong things - things will go very bad for them. One can disregard the national pilot morale, their staff and quality; things just won't intercept / won't fly / will fly in the wrong numbers, etc.

I am understanding what I am saying is a streamlining / simplification / straightforwarding the game forth, to make it more fruible and less weightful in terms of time, and smoothening the learning curve - but that's how I feel for this.

I do not play War in the Pacific AE due to the UI, that I cannot overcome, but I've wasted an amount of hours looking videos, checking turorials and trying Coral Sea battle.
The system there is ACE!
You park your planes in an airbase, sure you can set them to rest, and then you give them some form of operational setting.
They've some squadron leader or base leader with stats that will determine how 'aggressive' they're (how much they fly / intercept / react etc).
But then they will pretty much do their own thing from there.
I may be wrong as I've barely scratched the surface of that game.
And if it is not like that ... well I am wrong but to park bombers in ab ase and see them bombing depending on targets and all without extra stuff - with an On / Off switch sounds great enough for me.

My initial sentiments were with many of the posters on here, why the hell am I having to assign picket duties?! What a chore.

However, what HLYA says about excess Axis fighters, AA and AP is true and I agree that using this part of the game would help keep things balanced.

Having tried out using AS as HLYA has kindly detailed, it is in practice super easy to implement. I can see how it adds to the myriad of decision making requirements using constrained resources, which is an area of the game where I derive a lot of pleasure.

For those experienced players who understand something about the air war, I would recommend utilising this approach.

I shall continue using the full air game with my game versus HLYA

To the moderator:

This part of the game seems to be WAD. Please could this thread be moved to the war room?

Is everyone setting up AS's now or no? How is everyone managing their Air now days? Does interception happen more often in recent patches since I have been gone?

Interception certainly is happening MUCH more often.

Now... Before...