Matrix Games Forums

I posted back in 2019: "Will isolated and out-of-supply enemy units behind the lines still be able to move around and cut supply lines?" Have any of the updates addressed this?

Not sure this is what you mean, but yes? Happen to be playing at the moment when I read your post;

If an isolated unit still have internal supplies stockpile, it could move, no?

If the unit is mechanized, will it run out of fuel if isolated and moving? Thanks.

bgreatho wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:20 am If the unit is mechanized, will it run out of fuel if isolated and moving? Thanks.

It will lose equipment - effectively due to lack of fuel, ammo, or crew.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:56 am It will lose equipment - effectively due to lack of fuel, ammo, or crew.

Assuming an Overextended Supply Threshold has been set, equipment/manpower losses should begin as soon as the threshold is crossed. Possibly before the unit is actually out of supply. Right?

Regards

rhinobones wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:36 am

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:56 am It will lose equipment - effectively due to lack of fuel, ammo, or crew.

Assuming an Overextended Supply Threshold has been set, equipment/manpower losses should begin as soon as the threshold is crossed. Possibly before the unit is actually out of supply. Right?

Regards

Yes, but Overextended losses go to the pools. Unsupplied losses go to the dead pile.

Yes because tow trucks and troop trucks somehow get through to over extended stuff to bring back equipment and men but supplies can't.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:11 am
Yes, but Overextended losses go to the pools. Unsupplied losses go to the dead pile.

What we see happening to the Russians in the Ukraine goes against equipment automatically returning to the pool. Maybe only a percentage (set by the scenario designer) should be returned.

Regards, RhinoBones

rhinobones wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:40 pm What we see happening to the Russians in the Ukraine goes against equipment automatically returning to the pool. Maybe only a percentage (set by the scenario designer) should be returned.

Regards, RhinoBones

It really depends on the situation- which favours your suggestion. Most of the time, units are likely to be overextended because the force is advancing rapidly and so stragglers will soon enough make their way back to supply sources.

So even in a scenario with overextended supply enabled, an isolated and out-of-supply mechanized unit will be able to move and cut enemy supply lines practically indefinitely so long as it does not encounter an enemy unit that destroys it. Do I have this right? Thanks.

bgreatho wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:22 pm So even in a scenario with overextended supply enabled, an isolated and out-of-supply mechanized unit will be able to move and cut enemy supply lines practically indefinitely so long as it does not encounter an enemy unit that destroys it. Do I have this right? Thanks.

If it is isolated, then it can't be overextended. It can only be one or the other. And as it is bleeding equipment each game-turn via desertions and via stragglers as it moves, it could, eventually evaporate.

But until the unit evaporates, it will always have the same movement allowance seemingly unaffected by any fuel supply issues. Correct?

BTW, your posts, website, and explanations have been a great resource for me over the years. Thanks!

bgreatho wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:31 pm But until the unit evaporates, it will always have the same movement allowance seemingly unaffected by any fuel supply issues. Correct?

BTW, your posts, website, and explanations have been a great resource for me over the years. Thanks!

Once it reaches 0% unit supply, (and, therefore 33% readiness), it has reached minimum MPs per turn, and will stay at that rate. But think how this works in the real world: You have 20 tanks with half-full gas-tanks. You empty 10 gas-tanks into the other 10. Now you have 10 tanks with full gas-tanks. You leave the 10 empties behind and move on with the remaining 10 full ones. So, stragglers/desertions re-invigorate the remaining equipment in the unit. That can continue till the last bit of equipment straggles/deserts.

You keep throwing out how that works in the real world Bob. It's not like that at all. Same with the ammo. You spout how they don't shoot all their ammo and hold back. But if they are being attacked they sure as heck will expend whatever ammo they have to keep from being over run to the point where all of the ammo is expended.

"Sir we have 1000 enemy attacking us and we only have 500 rounds of ammo until tomorrow morning. That's ten hours"
"Well Private, divide the number of rounds by how many hours are left until morning and only fire that many per hour."
"But sir, they'll over run us because we can only fire 50 rounds an hour."
"No Private, Bob says this is how it's done and it works just fine. No one ever runs out of ammo."

Lobster wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:39 pm You keep throwing out how that works in the real world Bob. It's not like that at all. Same with the ammo. You spout how they don't shoot all their ammo and hold back. But if they are being attacked they sure as heck will expend whatever ammo they have to keep from being over run to the point where all of the ammo is expended.

"Sir we have 1000 enemy attacking us and we only have 500 rounds of ammo until tomorrow morning. That's ten hours"
"Well Private, divide the number of rounds by how many hours are left until morning and only fire that many per hour."
"But sir, they'll over run us because we can only fire 50 rounds an hour."
"No Private, Bob says this is how it's done and it works just fine. No one ever runs out of ammo."

Isolated units do run out of ammo via desertions. But the lower they are on ammo the more they will tend toward making every round count - flush with ammo they will choose full-automatic and spray at any sight of the enemy; not so when very low. It's called "fire discipline". And the better the unit, the more fire discipline it has. That's why high prof units lose less AP per unit supply % drop.

Agreed, IRL when rounds low, fire discipline increases. Also, fuel is allocated to best/battle worthy units and others destroyed in a bad situation where supplies dwindle. I think the game is well designed and I sometimes don’t understand the negative comments. Nothing is perfect but this comes pretty close for a turn based tactical game and it’s by far my favorite!

Curtis Lemay wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:33 pm

Lobster wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:39 pm You keep throwing out how that works in the real world Bob. It's not like that at all. Same with the ammo. You spout how they don't shoot all their ammo and hold back. But if they are being attacked they sure as heck will expend whatever ammo they have to keep from being over run to the point where all of the ammo is expended.

"Sir we have 1000 enemy attacking us and we only have 500 rounds of ammo until tomorrow morning. That's ten hours"
"Well Private, divide the number of rounds by how many hours are left until morning and only fire that many per hour."
"But sir, they'll over run us because we can only fire 50 rounds an hour."
"No Private, Bob says this is how it's done and it works just fine. No one ever runs out of ammo."

Isolated units do run out of ammo via desertions. But the lower they are on ammo the more they will tend toward making every round count - flush with ammo they will choose full-automatic and spray at any sight of the enemy; not so when very low. It's called "fire discipline". And the better the unit, the more fire discipline it has. That's why high prof units lose less AP per unit supply % drop.

Who's talking about isolated units? I'm talking about over extended. In the real world ammo does not last forever. Vehicles run out of gas. Deserters are shot in the German and Soviet army. They do not go back to the replacement pool. If the tow trucks can reach them and take them back to the replacement pool then so can the supply trucks reach them. Not only that but they are immediately available the next turn after they return to the pool. Nothing is lost under this over extended model. Ever. And they can drive and drive and drive. Sure eventually they all go away but again, the super heros here are the tow truck drivers travelling over hill and dale to fetch the equipment and bring it back but oh, they forgot to bring any supplies with them.

I understand that we are stuck with science fiction here because we are bashing our heads against a brick wall trying to inject some logic. Somehow all that equipment is recovered by super trucks that perpetually can't bring in supplies but have the ability to load up and haul back all manners of cartage be it tanks, artillery or small arms.

Lobster wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:46 pm Who's talking about isolated units? I'm talking about over extended.

Overextended units also run out of ammo via desertions.

In the real-world ammo does not last forever. Vehicles run out of gas.

Modeled in overextended units via the desertion mechanism. The elements left behind give up their ammo/gas to those continuing on.

Deserters are shot in the German and Soviet army.

The "desertion mechanism" in TOAW encompasses more than literal desertion. It includes assets intentionally left behind by the unit's commander.

They do not go back to the replacement pool. If the tow trucks can reach them and take them back to the replacement pool then so can the supply trucks reach them.

The "replacement pool" is anywhere in the rear. They hold there till supply catches up to them.

Not only that but they are immediately available the next turn after they return to the pool.

Not to any overextended unit that is incurring desertions.

Nothing is lost under this over extended model. Ever. And they can drive and drive and drive. Sure eventually they all go away but again, the super heros here are the tow truck drivers travelling over hill and dale to fetch the equipment and bring it back but oh, they forgot to bring any supplies with them.

I'll ask again: Have you ever played a scenario with an overextended threshold? You wouldn't be so condescending about it if you had.