Matrix Games Forums

What are the most effective ways to construct escort packages within the WitP TF orders system?

Lets say you have a TF with 'Transport' (tTF) as their mission and some AP's inside and you want to protect it from surface combat and submarines. Should you:


1 - put the surface combatants and ships with anti sub ability directly into the 'Transport' TF ?

2 - keep only transports in the tTF and create a 'Surface Combat' TF with orders to 'follow' the tTF and do the same with
anti-sub ships in an 'ASW' TF ?

3 - ???

In the second option above, should you order the SCTF to 'follow' the tTF, or vice versa?

Should the mission structure for these TFs change if the whole package is in open ocean travel vs. unloading at a port?

I've read that chaining TF's using 'follow' orders can cause all kinds of problems and that TF B and C should always be ordered to follow TF A, and not have B follow A and C follow B.

The manual mentions an appendix that discusses the various mission types, but it is not in the manual version that I have. Does such an appendix exist somewhere?

I would say if you are passing through an area where you think there may be opposition, then having some surface assets embedded in the transport TF is okay. Mid-ocean intercepts tend to be pretty rare anyway. If the transport TF is unloading, docked and stationary, then having a separate surface action group there, undocked and set to react along with some surface assets still with the transport TF for insurance is your best bet.

Note that TFs move in number sequence they are created.

So if you create e.g. ASW TF to protect your convoy, make that TF first.

Platoonist wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:09 pm I would say if you are passing through an area where you think there may be opposition, then having some surface assets embedded in the transport TF is okay. Mid-ocean intercepts tend to be pretty rare anyway. If the transport TF is unloading, docked and stationary, then having a separate surface action group there, undocked and set to react along with some surface assets still with the transport TF for insurance is your best bet.

It is also a good idea to have that protective surface combat TF set to "patrol" that base hex with a reaction range set. I usually set a reaction range to "1" or "2" only.

BTW, destroyers in an ASW TF will also engage enemy surface TFs so have good surface combat destroyers there as well if you are going into an area where there can be enemy surface fleets. I had an ASW TF chase away a IJN TF that had a battleship in it - but only after that TF had been bombed a few times the previous turn. Bomb hits on the battleship but not torpedo hits, which probably caused some fires and system damage.

Sardaukar wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:15 pm Note that TFs move in number sequence they are created.

So if you create e.g. ASW TF to protect your convoy, make that TF first.

So you are saying that the ASW TF should lead and the transport TF set to follow it?

What if you want a transport, ASW and SC TF to travel together, and they already exist at sea? Do you have to designate the lowest numbered of the three to be the lead and have the others follow it?

Jaus1 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:34 am

Sardaukar wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:15 pm Note that TFs move in number sequence they are created.

So if you create e.g. ASW TF to protect your convoy, make that TF first.

So you are saying that the ASW TF should lead and the transport TF set to follow it?

What if you want a transport, ASW and SC TF to travel together, and they already exist at sea? Do you have to designate the lowest numbered of the three to be the lead and have the others follow it?

Yes,the ASW TF is the scouting section, the vanguard so to speak, which all others follow.

Open up the TF setting where you designate the TF to follow another TF, you will then see how many hexes to remain behind both during the transit and at the destination. Then ask yourself that very same question.

Jaus1 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:34 am

Sardaukar wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:15 pm Note that TFs move in number sequence they are created.

So if you create e.g. ASW TF to protect your convoy, make that TF first.

So you are saying that the ASW TF should lead and the transport TF set to follow it?

What if you want a transport, ASW and SC TF to travel together, and they already exist at sea? Do you have to designate the lowest numbered of the three to be the lead and have the others follow it?

You need to get used to some game mechanics. TFs move in sequence they are numbered.

Thus, if your ASW/Minesweeping etc. is higher numbered than Transport TF, transports move first and can get into minefields and subs before it's other TF's turn to move.

Follow TF setting makes it bit more easier, but then you have to consider speed of TFs included.

Good practice is to make protective escort TF first.

Sardaukar wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:15 pm
You need to get used to some game mechanics. TFs move in sequence they are numbered.

Thus, if your ASW/Minesweeping etc. is higher numbered than Transport TF, transports move first and can get into minefields and subs before it's other TF's turn to move.

Follow TF setting makes it bit more easier, but then you have to consider speed of TFs included.

Good practice is to make protective escort TF first.

That sounds pretty straightforward if you are creating TFs to travel together, but what if you need to use TFs already at sea? Do you use form-new/transfer-to-from options to recreate the TF structure so you get the numbering you want?

Yes. You may have to form several small TF's off the original TF to get the numbering sequences you want. After you have the sequences you want then just transfer the ships into the new TF's.

Jaus1 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:54 pm

Sardaukar wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:15 pm
You need to get used to some game mechanics. TFs move in sequence they are numbered.

Thus, if your ASW/Minesweeping etc. is higher numbered than Transport TF, transports move first and can get into minefields and subs before it's other TF's turn to move.

Follow TF setting makes it bit more easier, but then you have to consider speed of TFs included.

Good practice is to make protective escort TF first.

That sounds pretty straightforward if you are creating TFs to travel together, but what if you need to use TFs already at sea? Do you use form-new/transfer-to-from options to recreate the TF structure so you get the numbering you want?

Actually the “who is on first” TF number does not matter in this situation.

Mostly superstition and I don’t even bother with this because there are other
variables which are much more important like detection and aggressiveness
of escort and sub commanders.

If the lead ASW TF gets detection on a Japanese sub it will attack.
Make sure you don’t set reaction on the lead TF.

The TF numbers move back and forth between the Allies and Japanese so it
is just as likely the Japanese will move first.

You have to put ASW assets in the transport TF anyway.

It does matter some when you are dealing with minefields.
Important that mine sweepers get there first.

What does matter in following situations is the reaction setting.
You have to be careful with that.

I get the same results without trying to figure out TF numbers.

I looked in the manual about the order of task force movement and it did not state anything about lowered numbered task forces moving first but after doing a little computer programming, that is probably how it is done unless other factors come into play. But I did see something interesting starting at the bottom of page 93:

"Certain TF types will act/react in special circumstances or have other special functions:

(page 94)
» Unless set to follow another Task Force, Carrier TFs will react to enemy
carrier forces and try and avoid enemy surface combat forces. Carrier TFs
set to follow another TF are assumed to be providing air cover to that TF"

However, on page 93 I know this is wrong:

"React/Do Not React controls the actions of the Task Force when enemy Task Force(s) come
within it’s reation range. TFs set to “React”, combined with enemy TFs within reaction range
may react, depending on the composition and status of the various TFs and the quality of the
Task Force Commander. Basically, TFs will not react if short on ammunition or fuel, or against
an enemy that is know to be significantly stronger. They will also not react if their primary
mission is not combat (i.e. transports, etc)."

I see where some of my surface combat TFs react and then try to withdraw because they are low on ammo. Then they react again and the try to withdraw because they are low on ammo. That keeps happening and it is frustrating because those TFs won't return to their home port to replenish and return to their patrol area. I have to change the orders for that TF.

manual states also:

6.2.7.1 Follow Task Force

A TF given Follow Task Force orders has the same destination as the targeted TF, although the TF Information Screen
will not list a DH for it. If Follow Task Force is selected, the Tactical Map is brought up. Click on the TF icon that you want
the current TF to follow, and it will return to the TF Information Screen. During movement, it will always move so as to stay
in the same hex as the TF it is unless ordered to trail at a distance. If the following TF is not fast enough to keep up, the
followed Task Force will slow down to allow the following TF to keep up.

So it seems that whatever will be the chain of multiple TF follow each other they all will travel at the speed of the slowest TF ( speed that is that of her slowest ship!!!!)

CVE task force following the protected tf. If it is in the same hex, the CVEs will operate at full efficiency even if shallow water. This will provide air protection and the bombers can be placed on ASW patrol. They have to train for ASW to really make a difference but more eyes are always better.

CA or BB in the transport tf will provide help against any surface group, AA in case of air attack and provide a bomb sponge in case of air attack as well.

For additional reading:

Reaction of the following Task Force:
fb.asp?m=2168891

Reaction:
fb.asp?m=3981594
Read Alfred’s example at the end of the post.

I cleaned up the example below:

TF #1 is an amphibious TF.
TF #2 is a surface combat TF; It has been given movement orders to
follow TF #1 and has also been given a naval reaction range of 6.

If an enemy surface TF is detected and all the relevant boxes are ticked,
TF #2 will react towards the enemy because the follow order tells it to protect TF #1
and it's own reaction range tells it to move towards the enemy anyway.
Remember a reaction move overrides existing movement orders (see point 7 above below).

7. Naval reaction is not dependent on the TF's movement orders.

A TF with "remain on station" orders but also given a reaction range, will react and
override the remain on station order and return home after the reaction
(which is why one should never give a reaction range to a remain on station TF)
whereas other movement orders (eg patrol, follow, waypoints) would see the TF react
and subsequently return to its previous movement orders.
In all instances a naval reaction move is possible only against a detected enemy TF,
the higher the DL, the more likely reaction will result.

If, however, TF#2 does not have a follow TF #1 order, then it will not react towards the enemy
in order to protect TF #1 but will only react on the basis of the threat/opportunity to itself alone.
Most players will not notice this situation because they usually set following TFs at a range of zero
and hence any enemy TF is simultaneously a threat to both friendly TFs which are in the same hex.

You can set up your own runs to practice.

I set a run up (Below) using a separate install.

Southwest of Pearl Harbor (early War) there are 9 Japanese
Sub Task forces with Patrol Zones set.

The 6 Hotkey shows the Zones.

Allied Task Force 43 ASW leading with a 2 Hex patrol zone set as shown.
Note the TF Routing….Those Asterisks indicate it is being followed.

Allied Task Force 44 Transport following in the same Hex.
Note the TF Routing….TF Followed 43.

With the Patrol Zone set these Task Forces are going to run back and forth
through the Japanese Patrol zones.

Turning back toward Patrol zone 1 there is an attack by DD Paterson
on Japanese sub SSI-174. (Japanese TF 80)

A few turns later there is a sub attack on the transport task force
SSI-174 attacks DD Chase.

Both Allied task forces were in the same hex but the Japanese
chose the transport task force to attack.

Note the ships the Japanese is trying to attack…..AKL Manini
which is the slowest ship in the task force.

Note that it is the same sub SSI-174 in both cases.

The Japanese have found a “sweet spot” on the route.
This means that if this pattern continues both the Allied task forces
and the Japanese sub task force will be in the same hex
at some point in the future….. That Hex is 176,112.

This is where intelligence meets strategy.

Say you are in a PBEM game...there was a sub detected in Hex 176,112.

As the Allied Player…..you write down the Hex coordinates.
Then what are you going to do:

1. Avoid that Hex in the Future when you send out transport or cargo task forces
because there is a good chance the Japanese sub will return to that hex?

2. Devote more ASW platforms...air and naval to target that hex because there
is a good chance the Japanese sub will return to that hex?

As the Japanese player…..you write down the Hex coordinates.
Then what are you going to do:

1. Put more sub task forces to patrol that hex in the hope that the Allied player will
send more transport or cargo task forces through that hex?

2. Change the patrol zone because the Allied player might target it?

A leading TF will in theory slow down but, and a big but it's not how it happens everytime in practice.

The way movement is impliment means TF do not move in a linear progression. Depending upon speed, a TF could move three hex for two turns then throw in a four hex move for the next. It has always appeared to me that the lead will slow over the turn but there are two movement phase per turn. Bearing these two things in mind afollowing TF can find itself one hex behind, or even two in rare instances. If it happens the leading TF will slow next turn but by then the damage may have been done.

You also have to take into consideration possible damage to a ship that casues its speed to reduce, hence the TF speed. This can occur mid turn and will also cause a separation.

Like in any relationship...this is complicated.

But usually, have the faster TF follow slower, not other way around.

Two types of situations exist when protecting transport task forces.
1. Task force is at sea….constantly moving Hex to Hex in the open ocean.
2. Task force is in port or base Hex….not underway..no Hex to Hex movement.

Lets take a closer look at number 2.

Back to another thread…...Jaus1….Bizarre combat results.

He states:
“In the first case I had a TF of 7-8 transports unloading at Noumea with a couple of cruisers and a
handful of destroyers as part of that TF. The TF was not docked, but was unloading.
The Japanese DD came in on a night surface action (with no other Japanese units near),
sank 5 of the transports, and departed with out taking a hit.”

I have not had that happen to me but it can happen and I may have just not been home
when a single Japanese destroyer came to call….or it was long ago and I can’t remember.

This is not likely to happen in a PBEM game. Most of my former opponents would
not make a long distance suicide run through enemy waters with a single destroyer.
Good Japanese destroyers are valuable and replacements are hard to come by.
It is going to be a long war.

In any case I went into the editor and set this up to get a closer look.
I used the 26a install……..I’m still looking over the new Beta.

Head to Head play.
I added to the TF what Jaus1 had said….A couple of cruisers and a handful of destroyers.

I used the setup below to run about 50 test runs in all different conditions.
Moonlight all the way from zero to 58 percent. All weather conditions.
I also ran many with more standard leadership.

Below is the closet result I came to the combat reported by Jaus1.
The Japanese destroyer never escaped without damage in all the other
Test runs I did. In many cases it was sunk. In this case it took one shell hit.

War Story:

At Noumea is US Navy (Transport) TF 422 (the 18th Div Reinforcements)...It did not go to Singapore
It went to Noumea instead and is at Remain on Station just starting to unload the 53rd, 54th British
Brigades and the 251st Recce Battalion. It is not docked.

The flag is VADM Arbuthnot on the St Louis….He has very poor skill...Naval Skill 23.
Inspiration 43. Aggression 62. In command of 13 ships.

The cruisers have the their float planes standing down.
(I tried them on day and night naval search and they did not make a difference.)

The US Task force is fat and happy and has begun unloading.
It is the night of 10 December, 1941. Weather is clear. 57% Moonlight.

Off to the Northwest, 360 nautical miles away, is the Japanese destroyer Umikaze with
With RADM Tanaka in command. He is very good...Naval skill 87. Inspiration 91. Aggression 91.
In command of DD Umikaze is CPT Kamiyama, Naval skill 74. Inspiration 57. Aggression 60.
The crew of the Umikaze has super experience ….99 Day...99 night.

The Umikaze had set a patrol zone in the area and waited 2 days to get the clear weather.

Then the Umikaze takes a direct route to Noumea, threat tolerance Absolute.
Mission Speed….Retirement Allowed….Home port Kwajalein Island.




Analysis:

The Japanese achieve surprise at 12,000 yards and launch torpedoes.

The xAP Wakefield is hit.
A good torpedo shot but the Wakefield was not underway...and surprised.
(12,000 yards is 5.9 nautical miles.)

The Type 93 Long Lance torpedo range is 22,000 yards.

Task force leadership was a major factor.
Although it is not shown on the combat report many of the transports
were not able to get underway until the combat was half over.
The very low skill of VADM Arbuthnot is a major factor.

The Combat Reports are not always exactly accurate or carry all the
relevant information. It is important to carefully watch the combat
replay to get a more accurate explanation.

In naval combat each individual ship has it’s own detection level
based on several factors….size and speed being important.
The transports I chose are large and that is a factor.

I think there is also a target acquisition factor included.
This was most likely why the Japanese choose the xAP Wakefield as the
First target. In most of my test runs the Japanese chose a CL as the first
target fired upon. Usually the St. Louis.

Sand box tests like this are not definitively informative because of the
large number of factors involved….including the Gary Grigsby random factor.
But it can give a general indication.

We don’t know what scenario or the exact composition of the transport task force
in the Jaus1 combat….or the weather or moonlight....but the fact that
the Japanese destroyer escaped without taking a hit is possible
as the above combat indicates.

The one thing I can say in regards to what Janus1 experienced…
Namely that the Japanese destroyer escaped with no hit in the
combat was not typical.

I’m using super Japanese leadership in many of these tests and if it
can not escape without a hit a lesser destroyer can not escape unless
It is above and beyond lucky. I tried to make it happen but I could not.

It makes me wonder if Jaus1 is running the current version of the game.
Or…..is Andy Mac the instigator?

Now that I have this setup I can look at other options.

Lets say that using the same transport task force above you sail into Noumea to unload.
Because it is an important task force you want to give it as much protection
as you have available. You split the task force into two separate task forces
A surface combat task force and a transport task force.

The surface combat task force is set to one patrol zone….the base hex.
The transport task force is set to remain on station and is unloading.

Note that I left two destroyers with the transport task force.
This is a safety factor as the surface task force can be pulled
off zone if a reaction is set and other factors.

In a situation like this I never set a reaction for the surface combat task force
because I want it stay in the base hex. The Japanese can attack with different
task forces from different directions at the same time.

VADM Arbuthnot transfers his flag to the DD Patterson.

The Umikaze makes a night combat run under clear weather and 78% moonlight.
Contact with the surface task force at 12,000 yards.

The surface task force screens the transport task force and the Umikaze
stays at long range and then departs the hex.