Matrix Games Forums

Coming out of that “NEZ: a Mig-29 can and will shot down an F-22..” thread, I felt that we have all been distracted by emotional dissatisfaction, frustration, and some incorrect conclusion based on tests that have flaws.

With the latest update, CMO is just like a new game. However with enormous new changes, new CMO behaves like a nuclear attack submarine conducting an evasion maneuver at flank speed, while spread dozens of noise makers cover itself, leave many of us staring at the sonar screen wondering what’s going on.
One of the noise makers is the BVR missile performance, why certain types of missiles (I am looking at AA-12/R-77 and PL-15) have remarkable performance while others failed our expectations?

Looking at the DB, you will notice that something needs an explore and explanation.

1, aim-120a, b, and early version of c 2, aim-120c-4 3, aim-120c-5 and c-7 4, aim-120d 5, aim-260 6, to be continue

6, R-77/AA-12 7, R77-1 8, R-77M 9, R-37

10, R-27r 11, R-27LR

12, PL-12 13, PL-15 14, PL-21

15, Meteor 16, JNAAM (this one is Japanese next generation AAM but with Meteor body)

OK, that's it

I am wondering if we can build up a test scenario, let different missiles shot at the target A/C with NEZ range, and record
1, what is the NEZ range?
2, what is the flight profile of missiles? Loft or direct path?
3, what is the missile speed when it catches the target A/C?

I think the main issue might not be NEZ per se. I think the change in how fuel burn is modeled as dynamic and not necessarily a static time. I know I read the dev's explanation on it, but never really put the brain energy into seeing what the practical implications are.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 4#p5068024

The one I was thinking of.

I guess we need a test on that... will work on one later today

Yes, some of the data comes from boost burn rate while others could be a sustain burn rate. But current game simulate every missile can quickly reach its max speed 1s left launching A/C

I would also take a wild guess, current NEZ range is decided by max range multiple a coefficient. But fuel burn didn't modeled correctly so we saw some weird combat results (although I have very limit number of sample at this moment)

If you build a template engagement, I'll help run it and swap in and out different missiles to collect data.

Thank you!

I used my lunch time to create the template. I am suck at Lua so I didn't spend time to write scripts. This is going to be a labor intense testing, sorry about that.

The targets is a Su-27P from side 2, I put all its missiles hold fire, it will approach side 1 at 920kt
I put a bunch of A/C carry different types of missiles on the map, they have all been assigned to interception mission. universal WRA set at NEZ. If my memory is correct I put A/Cs in the formation like

AIM-260, AIM-120D, AIM-120C7, AIM-120C5, AIM-120B, AIM-7M, AIM-54
R-37, R-77M, R-77-1, R-77, R-27LR
PL-21, PL-15, PL-12
AAM-5, AAM-4, Meteor
MICA, MICA NG ARH

You can just leave the one you want to test on the map and delete others in the editor mode.


I have tested two missiles so far
AIM-120B (max range 27nm)
1, NEZ range = 3.1nm
2, direct
3, Missile quickly accelerate to 2375kts. Because the range is so close, target didn't finish its OODA, and missile hit the target at its max speed 2375kt

AIM-120C-7 (max range 59nm)
1, NEZ range = 8.1nm
2, direct
3, missile took 3 seconds to accelerate to its max speed. target began to notch while 120C7 expend all the fuel and the speed reduce to 2000kt when the hit/miss die rolls.

Did you attach the scenario?

damn!
re-attach

thx

It happens to us all.

I'll take the Chinese and Russian missiles. I'll document various speeds and altitudes at various distances. I'll also try to catch motor burnout.

Edit: Thinking about this...I think trying with WRA at max, 50% and then NEZ is probably a good dataset.

First set of runs.


Edit: Made a couple mistakes and cleaned it up. All the measuring is manual and by eye so there is some variability.

Next set of results...


I might have to redo the last two AA-12 results. There was an issue with ROE that might have shown up there.

An interesting thing I noticed is that the further away a target detects a missile launch, the more likely it is to turn and burn. If it notices to close in, it tries to notch. Kind of makes sense. Its the, "I'm screwed" factor.

Have completed a couple more missiles and went back and fixed some previous ones. Just a couple small errors in doctrine made a big difference.

The takeways so far:

• As you would expect, if you want a guaranteed kill, NEZ is the ticket.

• Lofting missiles give a slightly better chance at long-range, but really aren't worth the expenditure against other fighters.

• At medium range, modern LR missiles have a decent chance of a hit. Thats the AA-12M and the PL-15. Older missiles like the AA-10 and PL-12 are really built for non-maneuvering targets.

• The PL-15's NEZ is insane, relatively speaking

• The target's AAM spotting distance is the key to longer ranged shots. It appears to be about 10-13nm. Seems like it might be optimistic, but no expert.

• Notching vs turn and burn is a last minute defensive tactic and marginally useful.

Too bad my games laptop will not be available for next few days. Secondary laptop's CPU doesn't last long under the torture of CMO, it keeps crash, overheat and restart. So my testing could be slow down in next few days


Thank you for your detailed report , thewood1, such detailed first hand data will help the whole CMO community enjoy the game.

thewood1 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:06 pm First set of runs.


Screenshot 2023-01-31 172958.jpg


Edit: Made a couple mistakes and cleaned it up. All the measuring is manual and by eye so there is some variability.

China Strong!!! lol

Well, after some shooting at non maneuver cargo plane and hover V-22 station at 25000ft, I guess DB team has to give PL-15 such a large amount of rocket fuel in order to make it reachs advertised 108nm max range. In fact the PL-15's effective range against IL-76 and V-22 is about 80nm.

I will add more thoughts later tomorrow

But can I ask why you set the launcher A/C's speed at 520kts?