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Okay, we're debating the most significant battles of all time. How about the Greatest Generals of all time.

Julius Caesar---Roman 48bc
Alexander Greek 325bc
Hannibal Carthaginian 200bc
Belisarius Byzantine 525ad
Khalid Arabian 655ad
Tamerlane Mogul 1350ad
Jackson Confederate 1863ad
Manstein German 1943ad
Guderian German 1941ad
Mannerheim Finnish 1939ad
Washington American 1778ad
Napoleon French 1810ad
Scipio Roman 200bc
Yamashita Japanese 1941ad
Rommell German 1940ad
Patton American 1944ad

I cant think of many for some reason right now. The list above is in no order; it was just a brainstorming session. Please feel free to add to this list.

Great list, I would humbly add:

Saladin, Arabian 1100 CE
Ziskos, John Magyar 15th Century(?)
Gustavus Adolphus, Swedish 16th Century

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Grumble ]</p>

Originally posted by Dan in Toledo:
Please feel free to add to this list.

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Here some generals for add to the list.

Zhukov - Russian - WWII
Wellington - UK - around 1800-1812

Everyone forgets the guy(s) that do the great deeds but dont get the press. Anyone remember the Limey General that presided over one of the greatest advances in modern warfare, then they steal his units for Greece and Rommel shows up.

Several sacked Generals later (Churchill must have been reeeeeally fun to be around in 41-42) and Monty appears after all the works done.

So much of history is filled with "great" generals who merely were lucky or just in the right place and time. Patton was something else, but did you know he actually "wanted" to hit the Pas de Calais. Not the thoughts of a "brilliant" mind. The Germans thought he was going there as well.

Then there is Stormin Norman. Hmmmm his gulf victories were standard text book fare. Was anyone other than Saddam surprised.

If MacArthur had have gotten his way he would have ended up captured fighting in the Phillipines as a regular trooper. He wasnt looking to fight any big war. I think the Pacific was won by Halsey a lot more than by MacArthur.

Most history those is made flashy by Prima donnas. The Press is the key to fame, not military brilliance.

My list begins with:
Alexander
Gustav Adolf
Napoleon
Trajan
Belisarus
Subotai
Henry V
Manstein
Lee
Hannibal
they are in no particular order

O'Connor was the British General who commanded "Wavell's 30000". It was he who masterminded that great counterstroke. However, he was later captured by the Germans and sat the rest of the war out as a POW.


Also, about Zhukov: I thought about adding him to the list. Even though he was the best the Russians had in WW2, his generalship is questionable. He used the NKVD to push his troops forward time and again. If they retreated in the slightest they would be shot. He used human wave tactics against the Germans. He also used low rated battalions to clear mine fields. Hardly the conduct of a superb general.

He is a good general but I welcome debate from others as to being one of the best.

Who is the Magyar John? I am not familiar with him. Please advise. Thanks <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . Good one on Gustavus Adolphus.

Also add to the list:

Thermistocles Greek 480bc
Temujin (aka Genghis Khan) Mongol 1200ad

Trajan?
Sabutai?

I know of Trajan but wasnt aware of his generalship. What did he do in the field?

Who is Sabutai? The only Sabutai I know of is the thief from Conan the Barbarian. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Lee is another one I debated on because of his Gettysburg debacle. Longstreet urged him to be offense in strategy but defensive in tactics. He did not listen. However, for holding the Confederacy together for so long, he DOES deserve to be on the list.

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Everyone forgets the guy(s) that do the great deeds but dont get the press. Anyone remember the Limey General that presided over one of the greatest advances in modern warfare, then they steal his units for Greece and Rommel shows up.

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Hmm...that would be O'Connor--who ends up getting himself captured by the Germans!

Subatai was Genghis Khan's general in chief. I would add Chinsan Bayan, Kublai's general, and Wallenstein, a masterful logician and tactician who had the misfortune to come up against Gustavus Adolphus.

And James Graham, Marquess of Montrose. Montrose frequent won battles against armies several times the size of his own.

troopie

Originally posted by Grumble:
Great list, I would humbly add:

Saladin, Arabian 1100 CE
Ziskos, John Magyar 15th Century(?)
Gustavus Adolphus, Swedish 16th Century

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Grumble ]

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Hi!

You mean Hunyadi János of Hungary? He was our greatest, and I think he scored the only world historically important victory of the hungarians. He beat up the turks real bad in 1456 by Nádorfehérvár (now:Belgrad). It was the most important place in our southern defence, and the turks went in with a brute force (about 150.000) and lot of artillery. All Hunyadi had was the garrison (if I remember rightly less then 8000, they were the real soilders) and a small badly equipped army of about 30.000 I think (they were only peasants really). And he really beat the turks badly (he shoted them to peaces with their own guns he captured). The big succses was achieved without western help who came as usual a bit late. Luckily for the turks Hunyadi died shortly after the victory in pest (black death) because of the many unburried corpes. The turks did not have a great attack on us for 70 years. So we stopped the turks (a great power then), and saved Europe for a while. Thats why they gong at the churches at 12.00.

Tom: wow I hadnt heard of that battle; interesting info--thanks!!

'Vo Nguyen Giap' should be on the list. Not many people who could have beaten modern day trained armies by using far inferior equipment. His work with logistics was truly unbelievable as well. An all round expert.

Here's a couple more: Gaius Marius and our own Gen. Winfield Scott (who was admired by Wellington).

General Giap is the reason why people think wars can be won on will alone. Without him Vietnam wouldn't have made it like it did, and people wouldn't be thinking the same things about Afghanistan they do. His efforts are what put the belief that an enemy defending their territory against a rich outside aggressor cannot be defeated. His contribution to the history of warfare is pretty significant. And for many a nation, I imagine, quite inspirational. Unfortunately, not every small country struggling against a larger one has a Giap, or a Ho Chi Min for that matter.

Tomo

Among the generals of WW II, George Marshall has to be considered among the greats. He coordinated the U.S. military campaigns with our allies in Europe and Asia, dealing with U.S. and allied generals and politicians with their own agendas and personalities, and successfully planned the 'Marshall Plan' which did much to save much of Europe from economic colapse and incursions by the communists following the war.

(Interestingly, George Marshall was accused of being a communist sympathizer by Sen. Joseph McCarthy.)

Eric Maietta

How about those Japanese generals from the sengouko jidai(sp?)?
Tokugawa Ieyasu and two others whose names escape me at the moment.

I think you mean 'Takeda Shingen' and 'Hideyoshi', both famous Japanese Generals/Leaders.

Ziskos, John Magyar 15th Century.

Is this Jan Zizka, the Bohemian hussite leader?

How about Jan Sobieski of Poland who saved Vienna (and Europe) from the Turks?

And here is my list, of my 10 favorites, by the way.
Alexander the Great
Belisarius
Gustavus Adolphus
Hannibal
Marius
Lee (Robert E.)
Scipio
Subotai
Wellington
Zhukov

Yes, this list is "Ancient heavy", and I could have put in a lot more.