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Command delay and movement status
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:06 pm
by byzantine1990
a unit has a 10 minute command delay and is set to Hold, I tell it to move hasty to another location. It changes to moving/hasty and will not start moving until after the command delay is finished.
What is the unit doing during the command delay? From my experience the unit gets out of its trenches and waves to the enemy until it's finally ready to move. This is based on seeing units get obliterated before the command delay is up.
it seems like in real life a dug in unit would simply stay put until the orders are received and pack up as soon as possible before heading out.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:08 pm
by DukeBannon
More knowledgeable people than me will give you the real answer but the first thing that popped into my head may be delay due to EW. Your Move Hasty order may take 10 minutes to get there.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:46 pm
by byzantine1990
DukeBannon wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:08 pm
More knowledgeable people than me will give you the real answer but the first thing that popped into my head may be delay due to EW. Your Move Hasty order may take 10 minutes to get there.
My issue is not with the delay timr. It's what the units do during the delay. The game treats them like like everyone steps out of their trenches for 10 minutes for a smoke break.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:37 am
by DukeBannon
Thanks for the clarification and that’s no good!
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:07 pm
by CapnDarwin
Guy, when Rob gets back on Monday, I will check with him on this item. I am pretty sure even though the order state changes on the counter, the unit benefits from the cover state until it moves out of the hex. I need to verify that with him and see if we need to alter the state change on the counter better.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:25 pm
by byzantine1990
CapnDarwin wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:07 pm
Guy, when Rob gets back on Monday, I will check with him on this item. I am pretty sure even though the order state changes on the counter, the unit benefits from the cover state until it moves out of the hex. I need to verify that with him and see if we need to alter the state change on the counter better.
Thank you!
I think this also begs the question. Why not provide more information about these things in game? Wouldn't it be helpful to see what percentage bonus my current move state is? What about the calculations for command delay? Right now all these things are black boxes.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:49 pm
by CapnDarwin
The short answer is showing that kind of data is too dynamic/transient to be useful most of the time, and in other cases, we just don't have an easy way to pick and choose where in the code to grab and show a value since it can change in the next second of game execution. If we were more of a simple rock, paper, scissors type of game with a small fixed set of modifiers, it would be easier to say this hex is a 10% defense bonus. We do show current command delays and timing, and even those are "soft" and situational, but give you an idea of what is going on.
That said we can look at what additional "black box" information we may be able to show that would be of use at a commander's level.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:51 pm
by byzantine1990
CapnDarwin wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:49 pm
The short answer is showing that kind of data is too dynamic/transient to be useful most of the time, and in other cases, we just don't have an easy way to pick and choose where in the code to grab and show a value since it can change in the next second of game execution. If we were more of a simple rock, paper, scissors type of game with a small fixed set of modifiers, it would be easier to say this hex is a 10% defense bonus. We do show current command delays and timing, and even those are "soft" and situational, but give you an idea of what is going on.
That said we can look at what additional "black box" information we may be able to show that would be of use at a commander's level.
Thank you. Greatly appreciated.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:48 pm
by cbelva
To really dx this we would need some hardcore examples such as saved game files so that we can see if the action is justified or not. When a unit starts to move out, it is vulnerable and they just don't jump in their carriers and take off, especially if they are in a hold position. They have to break down some of the equipment and move to there their carriers are at. It does take time for a unit to load themselves and their equipment to withdraw from a position. They and their carriers will be more exposed. There is a rule of thumb that needs to be understood and observed when pulling a unit out of a position. Don't wait until the enemy is up close and personal. Once the enemy reaches a certain distance, it is suicide to pull out. The distance can depend upon different variables. Once the enemy reaches that point, it is best to hunker down and fight it out. Also, when pulling out of a position, use arty and smoke on the enemy to keep their heads down and to shield the withdrawal. That will help with the unit survival too.
That being said, we are not above understanding that the game may need fine tuning in areas. If you feel that you have a situation where the units should have been able to pull back, send us a saved game to look at. Without an example to analyze, it is hard for us to know if we need to make adjustments or not.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:56 pm
by cbelva
byzantine1990 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:25 pm
I think this also begs the question. Why not provide more information about these things in game? Wouldn't it be helpful to see what percentage bonus my current move state is? What about the calculations for command delay? Right now all these things are black boxes.
I understand your "black box" frustration. I have been playing Red Storm and now Southern Storm for around 15 years and I don't understand all the things going on underneath the hood. And there have been times I have been very frustrated. I'm not a programmer. I have no idea what is underneath the hood. I look and ask, "is the behavior reasonable". If I feel it not, the developers will tell you that am quite vocal in pointing it out. But I also provide examples for them to see. If I can plainly explain why I feel such and such behavior is not reasonable, I have found the programmers to be very responsive.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:01 pm
by CapnDarwin
@Charles - We fear your whip!
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:59 pm
by byzantine1990
cbelva wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:48 pm
To really dx this we would need some hardcore examples such as saved game files so that we can see if the action is justified or not. When a unit starts to move out, it is vulnerable and they just don't jump in their carriers and take off, especially if they are in a hold position. They have to break down some of the equipment and move to there their carriers are at. It does take time for a unit to load themselves and their equipment to withdraw from a position. They and their carriers will be more exposed. There is a rule of thumb that needs to be understood and observed when pulling a unit out of a position. Don't wait until the enemy is up close and personal. Once the enemy reaches a certain distance, it is suicide to pull out. The distance can depend upon different variables. Once the enemy reaches that point, it is best to hunker down and fight it out. Also, when pulling out of a position, use arty and smoke on the enemy to keep their heads down and to shield the withdrawal. That will help with the unit survival too.
That being said, we are not above understanding that the game may need fine tuning in areas. If you feel that you have a situation where the units should have been able to pull back, send us a saved game to look at. Without an example to analyze, it is hard for us to know if we need to make adjustments or not.
I have no issue with having a penalty to moving out of a position.
My concern is the difference between orders taking a while to get to a unit and a unit packing up is not communicated clearly.
If a unit on "hold" is given a move hasty order it gets the "M" icon immediately and from my experience gets the "hasty" movement penalty to defense.
If a unit has a 10 minute order delay. How many minutes are they sitting in fox holes and how many minutes do they spend packing up? What about setting a deliberate delay of 10 more minutes. Are they in the fox holes the whole time?
When do they lose the "hold" bonus?
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:32 am
by Tcao
Move hasty order
After issue move hasty order, units status changed from dug in to "covered" immediately . An annoying consequence is the spottable ring (indicate how easy this unit can be detected) change from 1500m to 14400m. This is 0614 hrs
- hasty preparation spottable 14460m.jpg (127.18 KiB) Viewed 1894 times
hit start the turn,
at 0618, the unit is still under "covered"
- hasty preparation 1.jpg (189.88 KiB) Viewed 1894 times
but at 0622, the units status changed to "very exposed". At this time, the unit has not move out yet, it is still in the same hex
- hasty preparation 2.jpg (186.82 KiB) Viewed 1894 times
After move out the unit is classified as "very exposed" until it arrives its destination.
- hasty movement.jpg (110.66 KiB) Viewed 1894 times
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:41 am
by Tcao
for the move deliberate order
issued the order at 0614, the dug in BTR Co. changed from dug in to covered (spottable at 9800m)
the status keep at "Covered" during the preparation and move out.
- MD spottable 9800m.jpg (185.27 KiB) Viewed 1879 times
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:45 am
by Tcao
Assault:
issued the assault order at 0614, from 0614-0646 it has "covered" status. From 0646 (hasn't move out yet) to arrive in the destination it has "exposed" status.
- assault spottable.jpg (174.48 KiB) Viewed 1878 times
- assault 0646.jpg (175.37 KiB) Viewed 1878 times
- assault 0659.jpg (179.29 KiB) Viewed 1878 times
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:04 pm
by CapnDarwin
Thanks for the information. This will help look into this more when Rob is back on Monday.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:10 pm
by WildCatNL
Tcao wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:45 am
issued the assault order at 0614, from 0614-0646 it has "covered" status. From 0646 (hasn't move out yet) to arrive in the destination it has "exposed" status.
Just want to clarify the second status change:
When the unit starts moving (at 06:46) it changes to the "exposed" status. To move to the neighboring hex (500m) it will travel 250m to the edge of the current hex, traverse the hex edge (and any associated obstacle), and travel another 250m to the center of the neighboring hex. Only at that time, you'll see the counter appear in the neighboring hex.
We model this split movement to account for terrain/mobility differences between the two hexes, and to account for hex side obstacles.
In short, when the unit here changed to "exposed" status, it really is on the move (despite still being in the original hex).
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:20 pm
by byzantine1990
Tcao wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:45 am
Assault:
issued the assault order at 0614, from 0614-0646 it has "covered" status. From 0646 (hasn't move out yet) to arrive in the destination it has "exposed" status.
assault spottable.jpg
assault 0646.jpg
assault 0659.jpg
Awesome! Thanks.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:40 pm
by byzantine1990
WildCatNL wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:10 pm
Tcao wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:45 am
issued the assault order at 0614, from 0614-0646 it has "covered" status. From 0646 (hasn't move out yet) to arrive in the destination it has "exposed" status.
Just want to clarify the second status change:
When the unit starts moving (at 06:46) it changes to the "exposed" status. To move to the neighboring hex (500m) it will travel 250m to the edge of the current hex, traverse the hex edge (and any associated obstacle), and travel another 250m to the center of the neighboring hex. Only at that time, you'll see the counter appear in the neighboring hex.
We model this split movement to account for terrain/mobility differences between the two hexes, and to account for hex side obstacles.
In short, when the unit here changed to "exposed" status, it really is on the move (despite still being in the original hex).
a couple questions. How does "covered" relate to the other statuses?
Also, is there any adjustment when moving under artillery fire? To represent moving out of the blast zone etc.
Re: Command delay and movement status
Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:15 pm
by WildCatNL
byzantine1990 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:40 pm
a couple questions. How does "covered" relate to the other statuses?
Posture can be 'fortified', 'dug-in', 'covered', 'exposed' and 'very exposed', in decreasing level of protection / increasing level of being spotted.
byzantine1990 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:40 pm
Also, is there any adjustment when moving under artillery fire? To represent moving out of the blast zone etc.
Yes, but modeled in a different way, with subsequent artillery volleys being less effective than the initial artillery volley, representing that units go the ground / safer locations when artillery starts falling.