Matrix Games Forums

I always thought that increasing AA on Towns etc. would benefit units stationed on these very resources.
In my current match against Fafnir I tried to protect my subs in the German Baltic lvl 10 ports with up to lvl4 AA.
Still he can air attack with impunity.
I'm pretty sure, that, would he attack the empty port he'd take damage.
Am I missing something here?

If AA on resources only works to mitigate the effect of strategic bombers - whats the effect of AA on field fortifications? (Since those can't be on resources)
Are they a waste of MPP except for mines?

The AA upgrades will provide half the defense bonus to units occupying them if they are attacked.

Having upgraded AA units nearby will certainly help more.

So, from I remember that means that there's only any point on adding AA to field fortifications you take them to level 2 AA or level 4 (adding 1 and 2 AA to the unit stationed there, respectively). Works for protecting naval units in ports too (can be quite useful for Royal Navy ships stationed in the Egypt ports)

Thanks for the info.

I just did a quick test in Hotseat with the 1944 scenario.
Having a Sub in a lvl3 AA port turns the odds in favor of the naval bomber.
I do not think this is intended. Probably there is no easy fix to this. But it is still irritating

Duedman - do you mean that level 3 AA seems to defend the sub in port worse than level 4 AA? If so, that sounds correct, as I think fractions get rounded down, so 3/2 = 1.5, so should get rounded down to +1 AA rather than 2.

BTW I very much enjoy your video AARs on YouTube, I wish more of them were in English, though (but can fully understand why not!), Youtube's automatic captions translation feature can be rather garbled at times, though I generally get the gist!

I've not played SC: WiE for almost a year, as my life circumstances changed quite abruptly, but considering delving back in soon - perhaps we could have a game sometime?

hi there, thanks for the kind words. Currently I got a match plus 2 others starting soon. Maybe after that.

The screenshot does not show that both ports have AA lvl 3.
But once a Sub moves in, the predicted values for the naval bomber change from taking 1 damage 1:0 to 0:1
As if the Sub beeing there weakems the AA

Hi Dudeman - I think I might see what is happening here with the AA - if there is no unit on the port resource, then then the naval bomber is directly attacking the port, so it will defend with full AA at level 3 (+3 AA), but if there is a unit present, then it's attacking the sub instead, which only benefits from 50% AA strength from the port, so the AA bonus is only +1 (3/2 = 1.5 rounded down = 1).

Air units which are not strategic bombers will only attack resources directly if there an no enemy units in that hex, otherwise they attack the unit instead.

BTW do let me know next time you have some capacity to take on another game, sounds like you're at maximum capacity currently, though!

OxfordGuy3 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:29 pm Hi Dudeman - I think I might see what is happening here with the AA - if there is no unit on the port resource, then then the naval bomber is directly attacking the port, so it will defend with full AA at level 3 (+3 AA), but if there is a unit present, then it's attacking the sub instead, which only benefits from 50% AA strength from the port, so the AA bonus is only +1 (3/2 = 1.5 rounded down = 1).

Air units which are not strategic bombers will only attack resources directly if there an no enemy units in that hex, otherwise they attack the unit instead.

BTW do let me know next time you have some capacity to take on another game, sounds like you're at maximum capacity currently, though!

Ah. Thus your reasoning to only upgrade to level 2 or 4 correct? Nice tip will stop upgrading to level 1 or 3 from now on.

Tanaka wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:19 pm

OxfordGuy3 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:29 pm Hi Dudeman - I think I might see what is happening here with the AA - if there is no unit on the port resource, then then the naval bomber is directly attacking the port, so it will defend with full AA at level 3 (+3 AA), but if there is a unit present, then it's attacking the sub instead, which only benefits from 50% AA strength from the port, so the AA bonus is only +1 (3/2 = 1.5 rounded down = 1).

Air units which are not strategic bombers will only attack resources directly if there an no enemy units in that hex, otherwise they attack the unit instead.

BTW do let me know next time you have some capacity to take on another game, sounds like you're at maximum capacity currently, though!

Ah. Thus your reasoning to only upgrade to level 2 or 4 correct? Nice tip will stop upgrading to level 1 or 3 from now on.

No I think there's 2 things at work here. Like Bill said in the second post: Resource AA defense values are halved ONLY if a unit is present. If so, these halved values are then added on top of the units own values.
So putting uneven numbers on mines should still be useful. As long as you do not park units there.

The second thing is that, since the defence values get halved once a unit is present and Subs do not have AA defence, it is actually less risky to attack a port if a Sub is present.
Should only apply to Subs since surface ships would have their own AA Upgrades on which lvl2 / lvl4 resource AA would be added on top.

Still the effect is annoying. The very same lvl3 AA Port switches from damaging the attacking aircraft while beeing empty to doing nothing just because a Sub is stationed there. Are those guns distracted by the mighty Uboot?

@OxfordGuy: I cannot promise. There will be another Fafnir game (probably 2) as well as a series vs OCB with TRP Mod (double the amount of turns). If I'm still in the mood to play this wonderful game after that....

Tanaka wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:19 pm Ah. Thus your reasoning to only upgrade to level 2 or 4 correct? Nice tip will stop upgrading to level 1 or 3 from now on.

Well can still be worth upgrading to AA level 3 to protect valuable resources (e.g. oil and industry) from strategic bombers (or other air units, if the target hex doesn't contain any units), but won't be any better than AA level 2 in terms of protecting units in that hex

Duedman wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:18 pm
No I think there's 2 things at work here. Like Bill said in the second post: Resource AA defense values are halved ONLY if a unit is present. If so, these halved values are then added on top of the units own values.
So putting uneven numbers on mines should still be useful. As long as you do not park units there.

The second thing is that, since the defence values get halved once a unit is present and Subs do not have AA defence, it is actually less risky to attack a port if a Sub is present.
Should only apply to Subs since surface ships would have their own AA Upgrades on which lvl2 / lvl4 resource AA would be added on top.

Still the effect is annoying. The very same lvl3 AA Port switches from damaging the attacking aircraft while beeing empty to doing nothing just because a Sub is stationed there. Are those guns distracted by the mighty Uboot?

Less risky, yes, but a different effect - you're not attacking the port's infrastructure, but the sub, the port itself is unlikely to be damaged by the attack (same situation when you attack a ground unit sat in a mine hex with an medium and tactical bomber - the mine itself will likely be undamaged, unless you're attacking with a strategic bomber), though I think there is a small chance of some collateral damage to the port. If you want to damage the port itself whilst there is a unit sat there, you'll need to hit it with a strategic bomber (but then the sub won't be damaged...).

I guess you could rationlise some logic to this, not all the port's AA guns will be near the U-boat docks, some of them could be protecting oil stores, or other parts of the port's facilities which are not being targeted by your bombers.

Also, medium and tactical bombers have higher attack strengths vs. naval units than vs. resources - if you're attacking the sub, you'll be using your air unit's naval attack value, not its resource attack value (though the subs defense rating will be modified by the port's defense bonus).

Duedman wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:18 pm @OxfordGuy: I cannot promise. There will be another Fafnir game (probably 2) as well as a series vs OCB with TRP Mod (double the amount of turns). If I'm still in the mood to play this wonderful game after that....

Okay, no worries!

Duedman wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:18 pm

Tanaka wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:19 pm

OxfordGuy3 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:29 pm Hi Dudeman - I think I might see what is happening here with the AA - if there is no unit on the port resource, then then the naval bomber is directly attacking the port, so it will defend with full AA at level 3 (+3 AA), but if there is a unit present, then it's attacking the sub instead, which only benefits from 50% AA strength from the port, so the AA bonus is only +1 (3/2 = 1.5 rounded down = 1).

Air units which are not strategic bombers will only attack resources directly if there an no enemy units in that hex, otherwise they attack the unit instead.

BTW do let me know next time you have some capacity to take on another game, sounds like you're at maximum capacity currently, though!

Ah. Thus your reasoning to only upgrade to level 2 or 4 correct? Nice tip will stop upgrading to level 1 or 3 from now on.

No I think there's 2 things at work here. Like Bill said in the second post: Resource AA defense values are halved ONLY if a unit is present. If so, these halved values are then added on top of the units own values.
So putting uneven numbers on mines should still be useful. As long as you do not park units there.

The second thing is that, since the defence values get halved once a unit is present and Subs do not have AA defence, it is actually less risky to attack a port if a Sub is present.
Should only apply to Subs since surface ships would have their own AA Upgrades on which lvl2 / lvl4 resource AA would be added on top.

Still the effect is annoying. The very same lvl3 AA Port switches from damaging the attacking aircraft while beeing empty to doing nothing just because a Sub is stationed there. Are those guns distracted by the mighty Uboot?

@OxfordGuy: I cannot promise. There will be another Fafnir game (probably 2) as well as a series vs OCB with TRP Mod (double the amount of turns). If I'm still in the mood to play this wonderful game after that....

Interesting. I have noticed ports no longer seem to protect ships as well anymore. In fact it almost seems worse to port them now.

Tanaka wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:15 am Interesting. I have noticed ports no longer seem to protect ships as well anymore. In fact it almost seems worse to port them now.

I've just done some tests and don't think this is true. A British TAC bomber with Naval Weaponry level 1 gets a 1:4 attack against a German Heavy Cruiser at sea with AA level 1. If that same TAC bomber attacks the same cruiser in a port with AA Level 3 (which should give a +3.5 AA bonus to the CA, rounded down to +3), then it only gets a 1:1 attack, which is exactly what you would expect.

OxfordGuy3 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:57 am

Tanaka wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:15 am Interesting. I have noticed ports no longer seem to protect ships as well anymore. In fact it almost seems worse to port them now.

I've just done some tests and don't think this is true. A British TAC bomber with Naval Weaponry level 1 gets a 1:4 attack against a German Heavy Cruiser at sea with AA level 1. If that same TAC bomber attacks the same cruiser in a port with AA Level 3 (which should give a +3.5 AA bonus to the CA, rounded down to +3), then it only gets a 1:1 attack, which is exactly what you would expect.

Hmm have you done the same tests with naval and strat bombers?

Tanaka wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:46 pm

OxfordGuy3 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:57 am

Tanaka wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:15 am Interesting. I have noticed ports no longer seem to protect ships as well anymore. In fact it almost seems worse to port them now.

I've just done some tests and don't think this is true. A British TAC bomber with Naval Weaponry level 1 gets a 1:4 attack against a German Heavy Cruiser at sea with AA level 1. If that same TAC bomber attacks the same cruiser in a port with AA Level 3 (which should give a +3.5 AA bonus to the CA, rounded down to +3), then it only gets a 1:1 attack, which is exactly what you would expect.

Hmm have you done the same tests with naval and strat bombers?

There's no point, as Stat bombers will always attack the resource, not the naval unit, even if there is one in the port (so the odds you will see are for attacking the port, not the unit). Strat bombers only directly attack units if they're not on a resource hex.

OxfordGuy3 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:59 pm

Tanaka wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:46 pm

OxfordGuy3 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:57 am

I've just done some tests and don't think this is true. A British TAC bomber with Naval Weaponry level 1 gets a 1:4 attack against a German Heavy Cruiser at sea with AA level 1. If that same TAC bomber attacks the same cruiser in a port with AA Level 3 (which should give a +3.5 AA bonus to the CA, rounded down to +3), then it only gets a 1:1 attack, which is exactly what you would expect.

Hmm have you done the same tests with naval and strat bombers?

There's no point, as Stat bombers will always attack the resource, not the naval unit, even if there is one in the port (so the odds you will see are for attacking the port, not the unit). Strat bombers only directly attack units if they're not on a resource hex.

That's strange because my German ships in the ports of France were getting chewed up by strat and naval bombers it seemed...

Tanaka wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:52 am

OxfordGuy3 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:59 pm

Tanaka wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:46 pm

Hmm have you done the same tests with naval and strat bombers?

There's no point, as Stat bombers will always attack the resource, not the naval unit, even if there is one in the port (so the odds you will see are for attacking the port, not the unit). Strat bombers only directly attack units if they're not on a resource hex.

That's strange because my German ships in the ports of France were getting chewed up by strat and naval bombers it seemed...

Getting chewed up by maritime bombers is to expected, think Strat bombers should only do major damage on naval units in port if the port resource has been reduced to zero (it doesn't provide any protection then, I think), though I think there is always a small chance of some collateral damage ( could be wrong there, though). If the port has been reduced to zero strength by the Strat bombers and then afterwards the ship attacked with Maritime Bombers, the shipis going to get wrecked.