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Lack of recon
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:28 pm
by ncc1701e
Picture of my last turn. Honestly I have no idea what is here. Is it mostly large corps? small corps? divisions? Where are the tons of recon planes the Allies had?
In the game, the reconnaissance is not enough. I hope for WP2, planes could do something useful in this matter.
So, what is your guess? I am attacking? I am avoiding?
This is end of May 1944.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:57 pm
by AlvaroSousa
start ground striking.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:28 am
by MagicMissile
AlvaroSousa wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:57 pm
start ground striking.
I have soon finished my 3rd game as allied in 1.19 patch and I will write a post about my experience and some ideas for maybe not WP2 but maybe WP3 the Magnus Opus
. But one thing I can write about here. WP pacific have intelligence we need something similar in WP Europe I think. It is unrealistic and silly that you launch an invasion and you have no idea what you face, a 30 str corps or a 10 strength divison you have no idea. No real life commander would launch an invasion having no clue what you face.
I opened up hotseat 44 scenario. I bombed the German unit in St Malo 34 times it does not reveal anything just that it is a land unit
. So not sure if that really does anything.
/MM
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:50 am
by ncc1701e
MagicMissile wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:28 am
It is unrealistic and silly that you launch an invasion and you have no idea what you face, a 30 str corps or a 10 strength divison you have no idea. No real life commander would launch an invasion having no clue what you face.
Yeah, exactly my problem also I am not a real life commander. And, since re-embarking is not an option, this is heads or tails. Either you lose all your men, either you save them. I absolutely hate to make decision like this.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:01 am
by ncc1701e
MagicMissile wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:28 am
I opened up hotseat 44 scenario. I bombed the German unit in St Malo 34 times it does not reveal anything just that it is a land unit
. So not sure if that really does anything.
I have done the same test hotseat 44 scenario. Same conclusion:
- ground strike log always says Land Forces: 0
- Reconnaissance Report always says Ger. Enemy Unit Status Unknown
If by:
AlvaroSousa wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:57 pm
start ground striking.
We must understand that each time a ground strike is performed on a land unit, the reconnaissance level is increasing by one on the specific hex where the land unit is located. Then, this is not working.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:20 pm
by MagicMissile
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:50 am
MagicMissile wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:28 am
It is unrealistic and silly that you launch an invasion and you have no idea what you face, a 30 str corps or a 10 strength divison you have no idea. No real life commander would launch an invasion having no clue what you face.
Yeah, exactly my problem also I am not a real life commander. And, since re-embarking is not an option, this is heads or tails. Either you lose all your men, either you save them. I absolutely hate to make decision like this.
Not going to lie I would hate to invade into the screenshot you posted. Good Luck!!
/MM
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:35 pm
by ncc1701e
MagicMissile wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:20 pm
ncc1701e wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:50 am
MagicMissile wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:28 am
It is unrealistic and silly that you launch an invasion and you have no idea what you face, a 30 str corps or a 10 strength divison you have no idea. No real life commander would launch an invasion having no clue what you face.
Yeah, exactly my problem also I am not a real life commander. And, since re-embarking is not an option, this is heads or tails. Either you lose all your men, either you save them. I absolutely hate to make decision like this.
Not going to lie I would hate to invade into the screenshot you posted. Good Luck!!
/MM
Can't wait to read your report.
But, honestly if, each time a ground strike is performed, the reconnaissance level of the attacked hex is increased by one. Or, there is a 50% chance that the reconnaissance level of the attacked hex is increased by one. Exactly the same rule than "Enemy fleet spotted" changed into "Enemy unit spotted". This would solve this type of situation where you have absolutely no idea what is in front of you.
I am waiting Alvaro's answer whether this is actually a bug or not before playing my next turn.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:26 pm
by stjeand
BUT I would like recon to be false sometimes too...
Tell you there is a corps when there is only a division.
I read many times both sides would say they sank a CV or saw 5 CVs when there was one and some oil tankers.
I dislike telling you exactly what is there...
I even think land units should be hidden IF they are far from enemy eyes.
the US should have no idea how many troops are in Germany or Japan...or even if there are any.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:43 pm
by ncc1701e
Well, that was the choice of Warplan to let you see any land, fleet unit anywhere.
I agree with you that reconnaissance should not be an exact science. I would like also the possibility for one side to use deception. USSR was very good at simulating false units. USA did it with Operation Fortitude. None of this is possible right now.
My immediate problem is this one. How could I trigger an invasion without knowing anything? If ground strike is supposed to give an intel, this is not working.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:38 am
by boldairade
oddly, i have the opposite reaction
intelligence, IMO, is TOO good
particularly on the eastern front-as Mother Russia, the ability to launch mammoth counter attacks without the Germans knowing exactly where you are coming is a real bummer-and not historically accurate(see Russia springing 58 divisions on Germany in the Battle of Moscow, Operation Uranus at Stalingrad-over a million men/1000 tanks come out of nowhere, and even Citadel, where the massive soviet counter caught the Germans off guard)
i am not trying to say anyone else is wrong. i just have always had the opposite feel.
Similar arguments could be made for Fall Gelb in 1940 and the Ardennes Offensive in '44. These operations achieved complete strategic surprise on Corps and Army levels.
You cannot really pull this off now in WP.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:43 pm
by boldairade
boldairade wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:38 am
oddly, i have the opposite reaction
intelligence, IMO, is TOO good
particularly on the eastern front-as Mother Russia, the inability to launch mammoth counter attacks without the Germans knowing exactly where you are coming is a real bummer-and not historically accurate(see Russia springing 58 divisions on Germany in the Battle of Moscow, Operation Uranus at Stalingrad-over a million men/1000 tanks come out of nowhere, and even Citadel, where the massive soviet counter caught the Germans off guard)
i am not trying to say anyone else is wrong. i just have always had the opposite feel.
Similar arguments could be made for Fall Gelb in 1940 and the Ardennes Offensive in '44. These operations achieved complete strategic surprise on Corps and Army levels.
You cannot really pull this off now in WP.
Re: Lack of recon
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:15 pm
by ncc1701e
boldairade wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:38 am
oddly, i have the opposite reaction
intelligence, IMO, is TOO good
particularly on the eastern front-as Mother Russia, the ability to launch mammoth counter attacks without the Germans knowing exactly where you are coming is a real bummer-and not historically accurate(see Russia springing 58 divisions on Germany in the Battle of Moscow, Operation Uranus at Stalingrad-over a million men/1000 tanks come out of nowhere, and even Citadel, where the massive soviet counter caught the Germans off guard)
i am not trying to say anyone else is wrong. i just have always had the opposite feel.
Similar arguments could be made for Fall Gelb in 1940 and the Ardennes Offensive in '44. These operations achieved complete strategic surprise on Corps and Army levels.
You cannot really pull this off now in WP.
That is indeed the rule number of WP. Everybody knows where everybody is including fleets. Difficult to apply maskirovka in these conditions. I would too like to hide land units or portion of a front. I would also like to create false units like one or two tank corps somewhere to puzzle my enemy just for one turn (two weeks). Even WITE2 did not add this option. But, on the other hand, with WITE2 we have fog of war, reconnaissance plane squadrons.
Now, the question is. Is WP more at the strategic level or at the operational level? What do we abstract then?
I think a rule like "there is a 50% chance that the reconnaissance level of an hex, attacked by ground strike, is increased by one" is quite balanced. You can't perform ground strikes on every hex each turn anyway. And, at the end of the war, the Allies is supposed to have more planes that Axis i.e. more ability to perform overseas reconnaissances. Is it what Alvaro was trying to say by starting ground strikes?