Matrix Games Forums

As far as I know the player is free to decide to designate certain targets and "factions" as friendly/neutral/unfriendly/hostile.

The above means that I am free to decide to actually initiate hostilities when I regard a certain situation as acting in self defense.

But how does this work from the perspective of the AI? It seems to me that the AI can only change posture if a certain trigger activates and will treat the player as per its the predefined posture regardless of player action.

I have run into this in my Queen Elizabeth campaign when I did not wait for the "China is hostile to the UK" event and sunk a Chinese sub. Much to my surprise, China did not care about its sub nor the ships I started to sink and continued to regard me as unfriendly when checked in the editor.

The same is true for the Ford scenario. If I start blasting Angola with tomahawks right at the beginning of the game, they still remain unfriendly as the corresponding trigger did not fire that would entail a posture change.

Is this a bug, or is this WAD? Should I always follow orders and wait for the events to come up before I start the fireworks?

Thanks,

As a general rule, the AI side will go hostile if it can identify who is doing the shooting.

Often, if the player is careful enough and remains stealthy and out of detection envelops you can get away with free shots for a while. Especially if the AI is representing a less organized, less technically able side like Angola in the Ford Showcase. However in a confused environment - like 'Old Grudges Never Die' you will find the AI is going hostile pretty quickly because there are a lot of sensors available and if there is a missile heading in the general direction of a friendly, and they can identify the shooter - they go hostile.

So it is WAD, but can be a bit gamey. If you think you can get away with it, like sneaking up behind an Angolan MPA with an F-35 and hitting it from close range in a blind spot, you can plead innocence. But in that scenario, there is a tracker and the cumulative effects of losses will eventually make them hostile to you. Briefings will often give you some guidance as well. And remember, that they can see what their allies can see, so certain factions in that scenario will be able to see what the Russians can see, and the Russians turn on their radar based on events and player actions.

B

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Did some experiments and it seems that if the AI is getting shot from platforms which's side is considered as "unknown", one can snipe away so to say without any repercussion.

The system isnt working flawlessly however.

In the Live: QE scenario I fired SAMs at two Chinese MPAs.



As you can see on the picture, the ships firing the missiles became hostile, but the faction hosting them is still considered unfriendly.

I assume its not WAD.

SchDerGrosse wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:38 pm Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Did some experiments and it seems that if the AI is getting shot from platforms which's side is considered as "unknown", one can snipe away so to say without any repercussion.

The system isnt working flawlessly however.

In the Live: QE scenario I fired SAMs at two Chinese MPAs.



As you can see on the picture, the ships firing the missiles became hostile, but the faction hosting them is still considered unfriendly.

I assume its not WAD.

That's not a bug either. It's because the player side has collective responsibility turned off. If turned off, like it is, the actions of one unit will not be treated as reflecting the entire side. Simply put, if one unit goes hostile, the rest won't until they fire.

Kushan04 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:10 pm

SchDerGrosse wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:38 pm Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Did some experiments and it seems that if the AI is getting shot from platforms which's side is considered as "unknown", one can snipe away so to say without any repercussion.

The system isnt working flawlessly however.

In the Live: QE scenario I fired SAMs at two Chinese MPAs.



As you can see on the picture, the ships firing the missiles became hostile, but the faction hosting them is still considered unfriendly.

I assume its not WAD.

That's not a bug either. It's because the player side has collective responsibility turned off. If turned off, like it is, the actions of one unit will not be treated as reflecting the entire side. Simply put, if one unit goes hostile, the rest won't until they fire.

I get the logic behind what you say, however I think it is a bad scenario design decision/higly unrealistic that China would not consider the use of deadly force against one or more of its assets as an attack against the entirety of the PLA/PLN.

Even in very tense periods of international relations, neither China nor the US would immediately commence hostilities with the sudden loss of a sub. Even a heavy suspicion is not likely to commit a country to full war. At least thats my rationalization. Thats a designers choice.

OK, but whats the so called tipping point? Can the scenario designer set that? Or it is a binary option? (collective responsibility ON/OFF)

Because in my game, Chinas has lost 1 SS, 1 ship, 2 MP aircraft and 1 helicopter and the AI STILL considers me as unfriendly only.

Thats up to the designer. And my logic still applies as far as I'm concerned.

SchDerGrosse wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:18 pm OK, but whats the so called tipping point? Can the scenario designer set that? Or it is a binary option? (collective responsibility ON/OFF)

Because in my game, Chinas has lost 1 SS, 1 ship, 2 MP aircraft and 1 helicopter and the AI STILL considers me as unfriendly only.

It is a binary ON / OFF. I will admit that I found the Collective Responsibility being off somewhat strange, so I turned it on for the Showcase PoW modification.

TempestII wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:34 am

SchDerGrosse wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:18 pm OK, but whats the so called tipping point? Can the scenario designer set that? Or it is a binary option? (collective responsibility ON/OFF)

Because in my game, Chinas has lost 1 SS, 1 ship, 2 MP aircraft and 1 helicopter and the AI STILL considers me as unfriendly only.

It is a binary ON / OFF. I will admit that I found the Collective Responsibility being off somewhat strange, so I turned it on for the Showcase PoW modification.

I will change it collective resp in my game too.

One other thing, could you tell me what the "awareness level" setting does on the same tab?

From the original manual pg 111

"Awareness: This sets the side’s level of awareness of the units
in the scenario. Note that any unit may be set to be automatically
detected and classified by the scenario author, regardless of this
setting.
§ Normal: All units must be detected and classified using
suitable sensors.
§ Auto Side ID: All units must be detected but the side
identified upon detection.
§ Auto Side and Unit ID: All units must be detected but the
unit’s side and unit type is provided upon detection.
§ Omniscient: Similar to “God Mode” which reveals
everything detectable.
§ Blind: Nothing is revealed

btw, the switch is binary on/off. But there all kinds of nuances around it that a scenario designer can take advantage of, like detection, level, comms (especially with subs), allied sides, etc. Just be careful of the collective responsibility switch. There can be as lot of unintended consequences in lua scripts that aren't obvious until later on.