Matrix Games Forums

This is an informal poll on the topic above. I am very interested in learning what the community feels about the follwoing:

1. What's your definition of "suppression"?
2. What can cause it?
3. What are the effects, at this game's scale, upon the suppressed unit?
4. What's the duration?
5. Does it matter what kind of unit causes suppression?
6. Does it matter what kind of unit is being suppressed?

All the above can be summed up under expectations, but I wanted to offer a measure of structure to this.

Hi IMG!

Good idea this poll--as I am concerned/(and thus) confused about the (possible lack of) effects.

I posed a question to the Capt Darwin and dev team, after seeing a review that dissed the (lack of apparent) artillery effects (122 mm, "FOW off"), saying that repeated bombardment of a town had little measurable effect on the morale and fighting ability of the occupying troops (paraphrased). The author of that review clarified that he had tested this with larger artillery (i.e., 155mm) with the same (lack of effect).

Here are my responses to your poll:

1. What's your definition of "suppression"?
Loss of combat power and time to response manifested in the game by the inability of a unit to respond to a threat (such as hex entry/overrun, ability to conduct direct fire in the time-frame normally allotted to such action, firing indirect fire (artillery, HE/DPCIM, mines, smoke, etc.) or movement out of the hex in response to threat. Thus, this all results in "inaction" and combat power loss. This "inaction" models morale, combat power and readiness loss---recoverable at some rate depending on intensity and duration (whether threat ends or not).

2. What can cause it? Threats, both movement into hex and fire into the hex that units are situated/deployed.

3. What are the effects, at this game's scale, upon the suppressed unit? See #1, resulting in "inaction" and combat power loss. Relevant at any scale, really.

4. What's the duration? Variable depending on the intensity of the threat, several minutes at a minimum of disorientation/inaction/loss of firepower/focus.

5. Does it matter what kind of unit causes suppression? No, it should be based on the intensity of the incoming fire or force power entering an occupied enemy hex
6. Does it matter what kind of unit is being suppressed? No, all units subjected to morale, combat and readiness loss.

I am waiting to purchase (I have and love the original Flashpoint Campaigns) and while the issue of suppression may not be a (purchase) killer for me, it is an important factor in modeling modern warfare that must be included IMO.

I would love to see a developer response to how these were modeled in this game.
I hope that there is such considerations in the game at present.

Best,
BigBog

Suppression is when there is so much lead flying around that no one is willing to stick their heads up to see what the bad guys are doing. If there is a basement near by, everyone is in the basement.

I am not going to comment further for a few more days, as I don't want to skew comments one way or another. After that, I'll likely have some follow-up questions for specific comments.

1. What's your definition of "suppression"?

https://www.britishartillery.co.uk/wt_of_fire.htm

British operational research scientists in WW2 defined artillery effects on the battlefield stating them “in order of their ease of achievement”, although they are all happening in some degree simultaneously. They were:-

• “Neutralising” To prevent enemy movement and observation, and in cases of greater effect to prevent the effective use of enemy weapons. Effect to last during the bombardment.

• “Morale” To produce, in addition to neutralisation, a lack of will to resist continuing for some time after the end of the bombardment.

• “Lethal” To kill or wound enemy personnel.

• “Material” To destroy or damage enemy equipment.

[reformatted for this post]

I would equate suppression to neutralizing on the quoted scale. The game approach seems to be some combination of "neutralizing" and "morale." Seems to me that there is a wide variety of expectations from players

Since I am typically playing the defending side, I seldom use suppressive fire. I don't want to pin them, I want to kill them.

2. What can cause it?

Artillery, mortars, aerial bombardment to begin with. But any sufficient weight of fire should cause defenders to keep their heads down.

3. What are the effects, at this game's scale, upon the suppressed unit?

All I could do is guess at what the effects are. I think these are calculations that are not in the open. I haven't felt anything odd in this area or I would have raised my hand and posted a save.

Going a little further, this reminds me of the discussion about units ceasing to fire at each other. Seems to me that a small unit suppressed by a much larger unit in the same hex would want to keep its head down, and not fire. Then the larger unit would have no target to fire at. What we see in game terms is that the smaller non-firing unit seems to be always spotted. Y'all could look at this if you run out of other things to do.

4. What's the duration?

Shouldn't be too much longer than the duration of the fires, or the presence in hex of a much larger unit, or units.

5. Does it matter what kind of unit causes suppression?

Maybe not. What's the difference between this question and question 2?

6. Does it matter what kind of unit is being suppressed?

Well. What suppresses armor might neutralize infantry.

BigBog wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:22 pm Good idea this poll--as I am concerned/(and thus) confused about the (possible lack of) effects.

I posed a question to the Capt Darwin and dev team, after seeing a review that dissed the (lack of apparent) artillery effects (122 mm, "FOW off"), saying that repeated bombardment of a town had little measurable effect on the morale and fighting ability of the occupying troops (paraphrased). The author of that review clarified that he had tested this with larger artillery (i.e., 155mm) with the same (lack of effect).

Best,
BigBog

If artillery was as effective as that poster seems to think it should be, then there would be no Russians or Ukrainians left on the line of contact in the Donbas. WWI might have ended a lot sooner. And island hopping across the Pacific in WW II would have been a stroll in the park.

OTOH, I have seen posters here complain that their troops can't run away to safety when the shells begin to fall.

IronMikeGolf wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:40 pm This is an informal poll on the topic above. I am very interested in learning what the community feels about the follwoing:

1. What's your definition of "suppression"?
2. What can cause it?
3. What are the effects, at this game's scale, upon the suppressed unit?
4. What's the duration?
5. Does it matter what kind of unit causes suppression?
6. Does it matter what kind of unit is being suppressed?

All the above can be summed up under expectations, but I wanted to offer a measure of structure to this.

1. Hiding behind something to avoid being hit by flying projectiles.
2. Being shot at
3. Reduced ROF
4. Until they’re not shooting at you anymore
5. Bigger is always better. Bigger number of projectiles, bigger impacts, bigger ROF
6. Yes. If I’m in a tank being shot by small arm fire only I’m not supressed.