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Playing as Boskara, slavery is a very empty game play mechanic.

I just invaded a planet in my first run on extreme difficulty, which btw after only one run I can tell you now is the only way to play. Anyway, the invaded planet is a huge strain on my economy, negative numbers I assume that are much larger due to the difficulty, something like minus 25K support cost due to low assimilation at around 3%. I cant exterminate as I really need the income of this planet when it eventually gets to teh point of being a net positive.

No matter I thought, just enslave the pops, who cares about the assimilation of slaves, slavery moots the whole concept of assimilation.

Not in this game as it currently stands.

Ive not used slavery before but as far as I can tell it would only be useful once assimilation is high.

Slavery would be much more interesting as a game play mechanic if simply had more content than this, at the bare minimum some kind of short term gain to long term nerf. So you can invade a planet and make it pay now, it just wont hit the highs of a fully assimilated planet down the road, no deferred gratification give me that slave sugar high now, or at least something along this lines.

Also given the flavour text surrounding Boskara it would be great if I could actually consume the Harkonish pop on the invaded planet, actually turn them into a luxury trade good that had strong positive effects on Boskara colonies, but would lead to some kind of crash or malus when the Harkonish were all consumed leading me to need to invade and consume a new world, or maybe even set up Harkonish farms etc, something like this would really flesh out the bad guy mechanics of the Boskara.

As it is and given this a full release game with DLC, the Your race must slavery to win, btw slavery dont do much really slaps you in the face as empty placeholder content.

AK_icebear just shared an effective way to Slave on the Steam forums. I didn't realize the effective use of slaves before this.

1) Invade a planet.
2) Immediately after invasion, set colony troop levels to manual and garrison troops - to prevent automated transports from taking them away.
3) Impose slavery.
4) Set taxes on colony to manual, and increase sharply until a rebellion starts.
5) Quell rebellion. Assimiliation will increase 30% each time. Repeat until fully "assimilated" (note: I prefer to think of this as crushing the will to rebel).
6) Build Dhayut Slave Facility.
7) Lower tax rates until happiness is at -5 - stable for slaves.
8) Automate colony troop levels; anti-rebellion forces no longer needed.*
8) Profit. Keeping happiness around -5 is critical to balance profits and stability.

* During wars or periods of instability, there is higher risk of rebellion on slave colonies in my experience.

It yields more resources (or so I've heard) and certainly more income. The cost is no growth and slightly more susceptibility to revolt. Supposedly, you don't need the Dhayut facility for it to be profitable; it just makes it that much more desirable.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1531540/ ... 671778041/

Nightskies wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:20 pm AK_icebear just shared an effective way to Slave on the Steam forums. I didn't realize the effective use of slaves before this.

1) Invade a planet.
2) Immediately after invasion, set colony troop levels to manual and garrison troops - to prevent automated transports from taking them away.
3) Impose slavery.
4) Set taxes on colony to manual, and increase sharply until a rebellion starts.
5) Quell rebellion. Assimiliation will increase 30% each time. Repeat until fully "assimilated" (note: I prefer to think of this as crushing the will to rebel).
6) Build Dhayut Slave Facility.
7) Lower tax rates until happiness is at -5 - stable for slaves.
8) Automate colony troop levels; anti-rebellion forces no longer needed.*
8) Profit. Keeping happiness around -5 is critical to balance profits and stability.

* During wars or periods of instability, there is higher risk of rebellion on slave colonies in my experience.

It yields more resources (or so I've heard) and certainly more income. The cost is no growth and slightly more susceptibility to revolt. Supposedly, you don't need the Dhayut facility for it to be profitable; it just makes it that much more desirable.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1531540/ ... 671778041/

Yea I hate doing this kind of angle shooting in games where you game systems, this is basically a super cheesy work around/exploit.

I might as well turn on tech trading.

Also I dont have the DLC, which I dont think I should need to play Boskara who have slavery as one of their victory conditions.

The AI does okay with the cost of invasion, and I regularly see games where a few empires are eliminated before mid-game is in full swing. The ones doing it are typically among the more powerful empires, by the time I run into them.

All you have to do to take advantage of slavery is to manually control taxes to target 0 happiness. The point is that slavery is not ideal for a growing world, and isn't a placeholder.

Nightskies wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:46 pm The AI does okay with the cost of invasion, and I regularly see games where a few empires are eliminated before mid-game is in full swing. The ones doing it are typically among the more powerful empires, by the time I run into them.

All you have to do to take advantage of slavery is to manually control taxes to target 0 happiness. The point is that slavery is not ideal for a growing world, and isn't a placeholder.

I dont see how you are making that argument indeed your arguments are for it being a place holder not against.

If you game the system by manually setting the tax to zero and have other conditions then slavery will work if you rinse and repeat in a cheesy gamey way that was obviously not intended by the devs.

You have fully described an exploit, not emergent decision based game play.

fabricate revolutions to force assimilation so slavery pays is a completely cheesy artificial game play loop.

Guys we just invaded planet X, we could enslave everyone, but they dont buy into our culture, lets set tax so high they revolt, then crush the revlot, which will magically make them buy into our culture, rinse and repeat, then enslave them when they are full content to be part of our empire. WAT????

I am sure the AI does fine with the cost of invasion in Extreme as it gets a ton of bonuses to its economy. When not playing extreme I have never even noticed the cost of invasion before.

To not be a placeholder Slavery would have to have some fleshed out effects that did not depend on manual gaming of tax rates etc and it would have to have several clear game upsides v downsides etc, there is nothing like that in place in this game.

Making use of manual control doesn't make it an exploit. Slavery increases revenue at significant costs to happiness. To make the most of the increased revenue, you have to raise taxes more than you would for a non-slaved colony, where more happiness would be desirable. There isn't a feature to automatically set happiness targets through automatic tax control at specific colonies, so it must be done manually.

Doing this is a choice with an advantage and a cost, much like using a spear in a detailed melee game would prompt the player to 'exploit' the spear's reach at the cost of losing the ability to use mid-range slashing attacks. So I don't understand why you'd say this would not qualify as emergent decision-based gameplay.

The assimilation trick is an exploit IMO, but as AK says, it's not making them content, it's crushing their will to revolt. You don't have to do it. It is intended that invading colonies is very costly for a time, and AI does it all the time. I'll only do the trick once, to 30% assimilation, because I wouldn't say I like keeping tons of garrison troops so I can move on to invade more worlds. This mechanic, however, is only indirectly related to slavery as a mechanic.

Slavery is best used in developed, assimilated colonies. I don't know how you envision slavery but don't blame the game for not matching your vision. Your ... complaint ... that they're bad for new colonies is like saying the spear is bad because it doesn't have mid-range slashing attacks. This is apparent, but you seem not to recognize the advantage of slavery.

So please don't use them in undeveloped, unassimilated colonies. Again, the advantage of slavery is that it increases revenue and supposedly resource production (and perhaps construction speed too).

So yes the revolt trick is an cheesy exploit and at best slavery is a press button get more revenue button. So a placeholder.

Also dont try and hand wave my observation that slavery works better after assimilation is contradictory as a vision, I am applying universal concepts that are not unique to my subjective vision in any way.

Again, guys we invaded a planet, they hate us and dont understand our culture, we could simply enslave them but that wont have any benefit yet, we have to wait till they adopt our culture before forced labour has any upside is of course silly and absurd and that has nothing to do with my personal vision.

First, that is talking about your vision of what slaves are. You forget the situation at hand. Let me illustrate.

A small colony on a planet with poor suitability isn't just a small island; it's a network of enclosed colonies, al-la, a near-future Mars. Imagine we have such a network of colonies on Mars, numbering 60 million colonists, and someone militarily takes it over from space with mere battalions of troops. Meanwhile, Earth is running on 12 billion citizens. It is also militarily taken over, with far more space marine battalions. Both are brutally oppressed with severe taxes, and people and their children are dying, given scarce opportunities to support themselves. They tried to resist through 4 separate coordinated armed revolts over a few years. Each fails, ending with the conspirator's executions. At the end of the 4th failed attempt, hardly anyone has the tools, let alone the will, to resist. Only a future opportunity could afford a 5th attempt, especially after taxes are eased enough to allow people to survive.

Don't forget. The invaders can read your mind to some degree with innate psionic ability. Yeah, they're Boskara.

Both are turned into slave worlds. That doesn't mean everyone is cuffed and given a pickaxe; it means they have limited opportunities to work certain jobs as mandated by their overseers. The overseers themselves are brutally watched- it only takes a week or two to indoctrinate an overseer to the expectations of the invaders.

Children are taken from their parents to be raised in the manner deemed fit by the invaders. Scarcely any luxuries are allowed to be the property of slaves. Some are given as rewards to loyal and efficient overseers. A functional society arises, with humans providing their needs as before, but children are a distant faded hope to many. On Earth, cities look different from before, with centers for children separated from the masses like juvenile prisons and infrastructure modified to capitalize on the industry while relocating the masses to more compact conditions. On Mars, it looks more the same: there isn't room or capability for much change so quickly.

To help illustrate further, I got help from GPT-4 in a thread where I told it about DW2. It did a pretty good job.

Nightskies: With a focus on labor distribution, can you describe the society of a typical Distant Worlds 2 human colony with a population of 60 million, on a world with modest suitability, part of an empire governed by a republic?

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GPT: In a typical Distant Worlds 2 human colony with a population of 60 million on a world with modest suitability, governed by a republic, the society would be diverse and structured around efficient labor distribution. The primary focus would be on maximizing resource allocation, technological advancement, and providing a stable environment for the population to thrive.

Economic Activities: The colony's economy would consist of a mix of agriculture, mining, manufacturing, and services. As a modest suitability world, the colony would need to prioritize sustainable development and ensure that its activities do not harm the planet's long-term habitability.

Government and Administration: The republic's government would emphasize democratic values, with representatives elected from various regions of the colony to ensure fair representation. The administration would focus on maintaining infrastructure, public services, and ensuring the efficient functioning of the colony.

Education and Research: Education would play a vital role in the colony's society, with an emphasis on scientific research and technological innovation. Higher education institutions would train the next generation of engineers, scientists, and leaders, contributing to the colony's continued growth and development.

Labor Distribution: The workforce would be distributed across various sectors, with a balance between skilled and unskilled labor. The government would invest in vocational training and workforce development programs to ensure that the labor force is equipped to adapt to the changing needs of the colony.

Social Structure: The social structure in the colony would be relatively egalitarian, with opportunities for social mobility and merit-based advancement. The republic's governance model would aim to reduce income inequality and promote equal access to resources and opportunities.

Culture and Recreation: The colony would have a vibrant culture that blends traditions from Earth with unique elements from the new world. A wide range of recreational activities would be available to cater to diverse interests, fostering a sense of community and belonging among the population.

Defense and Security: To protect the colony from external threats, a well-trained and equipped defense force would be maintained. The government would prioritize security and work to maintain peaceful relations with neighboring colonies and empires.

Overall, the society of this human colony would be dynamic and adaptive, striving to make the most of its modest suitability world while upholding the values of the republic that governs it. The focus on labor distribution would be crucial to ensuring the colony's long-term prosperity and stability.

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Nightskies: Can you describe the differences to such a colony with the same focus as the above question after it has been invaded by hostile aliens (specifically the hyper-aggressive, partially adept mind-reading insect species, the Boskara), forced to be slaves? The invader's intent is to maintain a military presence to suppress any resistance and to take as much wealth from the humans as possible while maintaining the current conditions, not allowing much room for growth or prosperity. Avoid mentioning violence.

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GPT: In the aftermath of the invasion by the hostile Boskara aliens, the human colony's society and way of life would undergo significant changes. The focus on labor distribution would still be present, but the priorities and conditions would shift dramatically under the new regime.

Economic Activities: The colony's economy would be redirected to serve the Boskara's interests. Resource extraction, manufacturing, and agriculture would be intensified to generate wealth for the alien invaders. This shift could lead to the depletion of natural resources and environmental degradation, as sustainability is no longer a priority.

Government and Administration: The democratic values and systems of the republic would be replaced by a more authoritarian regime, imposed by the Boskara to maintain control. Human representatives would likely be replaced by Boskara overseers or human collaborators, and the administration would focus on ensuring compliance and meeting production quotas set by the invaders.

Education and Research: Educational institutions would experience significant changes under Boskara rule. The focus on scientific research and technological innovation may be curtailed, with more emphasis placed on vocational training to support the invaders' resource extraction and manufacturing efforts. Furthermore, any research conducted would likely be controlled and directed toward the Boskara's interests.

Labor Distribution: The workforce would be subject to stricter control and supervision under the Boskara regime. Skilled and unskilled labor would be allocated to meet the invaders' needs, often with little regard for individual preferences or long-term career development. The focus would be on maximizing productivity and ensuring a steady flow of wealth to the Boskara.

Social Structure: The egalitarian social structure of the colony would be disrupted under Boskara rule. Humans would occupy a lower social status, with limited opportunities for social mobility or advancement. The invaders might introduce a caste-like system, where humans are segregated based on their roles and the perceived value of their labor.

Culture and Recreation: Cultural expression and recreational activities would likely be restricted or heavily monitored under the Boskara regime. The invaders might suppress human cultural practices that they perceive as a threat to their control, while promoting activities that align with their interests and help maintain order.

Defense and Security: The colony's defense force would be dismantled or integrated into the Boskara military apparatus. Security measures would be heightened, with the focus on suppressing dissent and maintaining control over the human population.

Under Boskara rule, the human colony would face significant challenges and hardships. The focus on labor distribution would remain, but the conditions would be harsher, and opportunities for growth and prosperity would be severely limited. The resilience and adaptability of the human population would be tested as they struggle to navigate this new reality.

Now, remember that the Mars colony has to maintain itself. That costs more money than the colony can afford, even under slavery. It is simply unwise of the Boskara to enslave Mars. It's worthless. They should either eliminate them or allow them to grow to a point that they can be profitable. This isn't nonsense.

In the case of Earth, it would be unprofitable for years if allowed to lose the will to resist naturally without allowing failed revolts. It doesn't matter if they're enslaved or not in that case. Forced into assimilation, that's when they become profitable. That isn't nonsense, either.

It just conflicts with your vision, which doesn't reflect the game, and I don't think it reflects how it would be if it were realistic. Not that we should discuss how it would be if it were realistic- that's totes beside the point and is irrelevant.

You need to maybe step back and accept that criticism of this game can be valid because you are going into bat for it at an insane level.

Is not the fact that a DLC race get a slavery specific building enough to elucidate how empty and shallow the slavery mechanics are in this game for OG races, especially ones for which slavery is part of their win conditions?

You first defended with a blatant exploit and now are reduced to yea but chat gpt said X so Boskara should not even enslave (even though its part of their racial profile and win scoring).

However again you make my arguments for me, everything GPT says about an enslaved human colony says slavery should not be dependent on Assimilation as it is currently, whereby it only works on colonies that are fully integrated culturally into your civilisation, wake up, total and utter authoritarian command and control of a sub species population does not require that by definition.

Which again has nothing at all to do with my vision, and instead is rooted firmly and absolutely in universal concepts of slavery and assimilation. As is enciced by an AI making arguments as to why slavery should not require assimilation, whatever my vision is, chatgpt has the same one, that is because we are both relying on universal concepts and definitions.

Making the argument slavery is sub optimal as you are now doing, is a massive and total goal post shift of epic proportions and is basically gas lighting and in bad faith.

Boskara are enslavers and if the game mechanics were in any way fleshed out then slavery would provide some benefits for them with unassimalted populations, or to be more precise, whatever benefits accrue from slavery, assimilation should not be a factor in determining both positive and negative and positive outcomes.

As it stands the non exploit game mechanics amount to press button when fully assimilated get X and nothing you argue in the post above counters this, you dont actually argue anything about what actual game play mechanics exist in game, its all conceptual handwaving and goal post shifting.

Press button get X are the extent of the mechanics, yea totally not a place holder, how is this even a debate?

P.S, I have over 200 hours in this game and really enjoy it and DWU is my favourite 4X of all time no other game gets close imo, I can still see the wood for trees though, you dont need to white knight so hard for this game.

tankacealpha wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:52 pm If you game the system by manually setting the tax to zero and have other conditions then slavery will work if you rinse and repeat in a cheesy gamey way that was obviously not intended by the devs.

You have fully described an exploit, not emergent decision based game play.

fabricate revolutions to force assimilation so slavery pays is a completely cheesy artificial game play loop.

Elsewhere devs have responded to my tips on slavery, affirming that is a good approach that fits with their intentions. I suggested they improve
A) how the AI handles this. It should be fine executing what I described
B) how this is communicated to the player. These exact same mechanics and outcomes could have slightly different messages and pop-ups and feel like a logical process in a recently enslaved population.

FYI the process should work fine for any race enslaving any other race. The Dhayut facility makes the final outcome more profitable, but in my experience it is profitable when playing non Dhayut too. Disclaimer: I haven't played the game in about a month.

Nightskies wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:08 am , and I don't think it reflects how it would be if it were realistic. Not that we should discuss how it would be if it were realistic- that's totes beside the point and is irrelevant.

Even in pure game play terms, slavery needs to be balanced for Boskara as it is a win condition for them, they also suffer a -40% malus to assimilation.

I should not have to explain why a race that has slavery as a win condition should get different contextual results from slavery that a non slavery win condition race does in terms of pure game balance.

If slavery is sub optimal in a given situation then I have to make a sacrifice that another race doesnt to achieve a win condition, also that race might have reasearch etc as a win condition, e.g. a double feedback from a positive outcome, research is inherently good and it contributes to my win condition is not balanced against slavery is inherently bad in some situations but I need to consider doing it to win.

Ultimately there needs to be contextual game play mechanics added to the Boskara race in terms of slavery and as such the mechanics that are in place that have to be gamed and are the same for all races except a DLC race.

AKicebear wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:19 am

tankacealpha wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:52 pm If you game the system by manually setting the tax to zero and have other conditions then slavery will work if you rinse and repeat in a cheesy gamey way that was obviously not intended by the devs.

You have fully described an exploit, not emergent decision based game play.

fabricate revolutions to force assimilation so slavery pays is a completely cheesy artificial game play loop.

Elsewhere devs have responded to my tips on slavery, affirming that is a good approach that fits with their intentions. I suggested they improve
A) how the AI handles this. It should be fine executing what I described
B) how this is communicated to the player. These exact same mechanics and outcomes could have slightly different messages and pop-ups and feel like a logical process in a recently enslaved population.

FYI the process should work fine for any race enslaving any other race. The Dhayut facility makes the final outcome more profitable, but in my experience it is profitable when playing non Dhayut too. Disclaimer: I haven't played the game in about a month.

Yes, I think the key point here is that the AI is not handling it well and it needs to.

It is not however an exploit, it was very much intended that you could force assimilation through crushing rebellions and that this is the aggressive/warlike way to assimilate an enslaved population if you don't want to take the longer more peaceful way.

We're planning to revisit slavery, we know there's a lot more that could be done here to make it more interesting, but the first step has to be to get the AI to be able to better handle its economy and population policies in all respects, especially with regards to managing slavery and assimilation and support costs.

Regards,

- Erik

Sure crushing rebellions should lead to easier slavery, that is not an exploit.

What is clearly an exploit is purposefully angle shooting so that those rebellions happen in the first place.

I have taken no offense or anything to what was said. Merely trying to discuss this. Maybe I have too much free time, but here we are. I am trying to be faithful to a beneficial conversation, if not painless.

I didn't mean to invalidate the criticism- I hardly even recognized it as such (sorry). You mention converting pops into goods. That's... an idea... but I'm primarily talking about slavery supposedly being a placeholder. I started with AK's post to demonstrate that it has purpose and function, intending to help. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of what a placeholder is. It is something that doesn't work and exists to reserve the spot for the future intended function. Or is it a substitute for the real thing? Either way, slavery being activated by a button doesn't make it a placeholder.

I don't see how showing that slavery has an advantage, and explaining when it shouldn't be used, is shifting the topic. That directly addresses the subject. Or was it your intent to focus on the AI not being adept at slaving? That's certainly true.

I am saying you have a particular vision about what slavery should be: "Also given the flavour text surrounding Boskara it would be great if I could actually consume the Harkonish pop on the invaded planet, actually turn them into a luxury trade good that had strong positive effects on Boskara colonies, but would lead to some kind of crash or malus when the Harkonish were all consumed leading me to need to invade and consume a new world, or maybe even set up Harkonish farms etc, something like this would really flesh out the bad guy mechanics of the Boskara." - You're showing what you expect. Not a bad idea, by the way. A fine vision. The Dhayut do take it to that level, almost. The default races may get the same attention. It's intended at least, so it's been said.

You repeat this here: "Again, guys we invaded a planet, they hate us and dont understand our culture, we could simply enslave them but that wont have any benefit yet, we have to wait till they adopt our culture before forced labour has any upside is of course silly and absurd" - The only problem here is that you are portraying the way it currently functions as, literally, silly and absurd. It is only silly and absurd by your current measure of how it should be. I'm trying to show you otherwise.

My responses have been primarily about that. It's not merely a placeholder so victory conditions can be met. Of course, its just a little button and a few modifiers, but compared to the structure of an entire society, being represented by a name and similarly, a handful of modifiers, starting techs, and how leaders turnover, slavery is equally reflected.

Slaves are merely people that are technically considered property. Most don't have much choice about when or where they work or what the work entails. Many have the agency to decide how they go about it.

I showed GPT to help illustrate the situation because it seems you have this idea that being a slave means being eaten or working to death. You mention "universal concepts of slavery and assimilation". How does slavery being inefficient in an enclosed colony on the scale of millions of inhabitants oppose these universal concepts? On a small scale, where slaves operate a specific mine, it stands to reason that slavery could be practical there, but we are talking about tens to hundreds of millions of people with only a handful of natural resources that they can exploit, which will be done mostly by machinery regardless (they're simply magnitudes more effective than by hand). That handful of exploitable resources by them can only turn out so much profit- not enough to justify the expensive operation of running a colony in a near-hostile environment.

That seems quite logical to me.

Apologies, though, I do agree that repeatedly causing revolt to max assimilation FEELS like an exploit. A silent agreement was going on there. The rest of it isn't, for sure.

Assimilation represents numerous things, not just a level of familiarity with a society. Executing a neighbor for not understanding and then pointing a gun at the head really helps in expediting understanding, and ensuring that they really get the rules afterward. The only exploit part is how the player can force it to happen repeatedly. This is a problem, IMO, but not a big one. I don't use it more than once, and that's teetering on the edge of what I personally accept as an exploit. It'd probably work slapping slavery on immediately, too, but it's easier to change tax quickly to the same effect. That wouldn't be exploit-y at all, even if stopping slavery right after. Manipulative, sure, but it seems that triggering a revolt once right away is an intended thing. It even garrisons a bunch of troops in anticipation of it.

Assimilation being low does reflect how the society wouldn't function smoothly. The example I showed, with GPT's help, demonstrates a catastrophic change in society that imposes slavery. A sudden shift from an egalitarian society to a caste system is effectively the death and rebirth of every individual's persona. Again, I find instant-max-assimilation an exploit and doesn't reflect how the game is intended to function. Looking at society as a whole goes far beyond mere individual understanding and integration; it also includes infrastructure. All those factories designed for personal transport? Almost obsolete in a society of slaves. Those highways? Obsolete. Stadiums? To be demolished. Schools? To be replaced. Homes? Completely changed. GPT's focus was on labor distribution, and I fail to see how that isn't reflected by low assimilation anyway.

In a less extreme shift of society, say, one human republic empire conquering a human democratic empire, with slavery being out of the question, the low assimilation represents other factors. Quiet resistance- not showing up to work, personal lawsuits against the new local government, businesses collapsing under the sudden change in currency and financial backing, etc. The point is a newly conquered people are difficult to exploit across the board, be the invaders individually amiable or overtly oppressive.

This ain't a homeworld-level, country-vs-country, human-against-human takeover on naturally inhabitable land. Mass slavery in a multi-system empire can hardly be compared to earthly historical examples. I think you were banking too much on future slavery being similar to some historical cases. You've already somewhat demonstrated what you expect - hence my repeat about the game merely conflicting with your vision of what slavery is - but with regard to slavery as a mechanic itself, it ain't no placeholder.

Several racial objectives are hollow in the same regard that you are looking at slavery for them- but they still represent playing faithfully to the style of the race as intended, even if the function doesn't even work (*cough* Mortalen). Boskara is about dominating, spreading themselves far and in great numbers while suppressing other races. Allowing other races to proliferate is not in the spirit of the Boskara. Enslave the big colonies. Destroy the smaller ones. Its for the greater good of the Hive.

Again, I don't mean to invalidate your vision, just that the game's vision isn't misplaced. As already concluded in the other thread, perhaps the 'not-exploit' of repeated rebellions could stand to be adjusted to feel like less of an exploit.

• Perhaps making rebellions only possible once in a while, with a bigger shift in assimilation?
  This would force the aggressor to keep garrisoned troops much longer, while still having to pay a large amount for a while.
• Perhaps an invaded colony gets a small cap or even no happiness from low taxes, making suppressing rebellions the standard for invasions (thus the AI does it)?
  In this, perhaps a government or race can mitigate the penalty, but its in the opposite vein of your proposal, to the benefit of more beneficent races.
• A rebellion might be more severe, including some military grade units instead of just militia, perhaps by turning some of the militia against the empire.
• Severity of the rebellion could be proportional to the happiness at the time of the revolt. Very, very high negative happiness might even turn nearly the entire garrison over. The workaround would be to keep troops in orbit, ready to drop on rebellion.

Dad, given we have just conquered the the xeno scum and given we are a hive mind and have a completely different ontology of being, consciousness and sentience to the xeno scum, how long would it take to integrate them fully into our culture so they have the exact same rights and privalleges of the average spider?

Ten cycles son.

Oh Dad, that seems a long time, why dont we just enslave the xeno scum?

Oh Son that takes exactly and precisely the same amount of time.

If you cant see how silly and absurd this is then I can only assume you will perform any amount of mental gymnastics to defend this game.

You seem to be resisting the fact that a society of slaves is still functioning and has to take care of its own needs.

One change to reduce the gaminess of forced rebellions would be to have a cool down trigger after a rebellion is beaten. So I can't trigger rebellions back to back, and live with lower assimilation for longer. Some variables of the enslaved race could affect this duration.

Also, keep in mind that forcing a rebellion means local population is killed. In my experience around 20-30% of initial population is killed after 3-4 rebellions to establish full assimilation. That feels reasonably well balanced in that regard.

Nightskies wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 2:54 am You seem to be resisting the fact that a society of slaves is still functioning and has to take care of its own needs.

You seem to be purposefully operating under the mis apprehension that slaves are only of use in the location they derive from, which is of course nonsense.

Slaves are property, a resource and can be moved for economic gains far from the land in which they originate, which is off course how they were utilised in the real world.

Your whole position ignores this and focused on some weird concept of creating a slave society purely in the location where the slaves originate from.

Also, again your above post is a lazy strawman.

I am not arguing that utilisation of a new conquered slave population should happen instantly, just that it will take a different amount of time and process then integrating an absolutely alien culture and civilisation based on completely different biological determinants into your civilisation.