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Just wondered what folks think.

I've over 500 hours in the WiE game and tried various tactics and strategies, but diplomacy seems expensive and of minimal value in my experience, particularly for a relatively short Strategic game..

Thoughts please?

Steevo

I'm currently playing the 1939 campaign as Axis and diplomacy has helped a lot. Getting (or preventing) Turkey, Spain, and Vichy France to join the Axis is important to my strategy. Currently it's Summer 1943 and the Allies have landed in France, and that somehow tipped the tables on the last 20% needed for Vichy to join the Axis. Very timely indeed. Now to put more focus on Turkey to help with Russia. I can't imagine not investing in diplomacy.

As the Allies, I find that diplomacy is useful to *prevent* or at least hinder the Axis getting the minors like Spain more than it is to actually get the minors to join me. Especially that period between when France falls and the end of 1941 when the US (and it's 7% diplomacy chits) join the Allies is very important - for both sides but especially the Axis. With Italy and Germany against only the UK, it is the best time to try to get Spain or whatever target is desired. After that or even before if your strategy is just to hinder the chances of a diplomacy move, diplomacy chits are to minimise risk more than gain minors.

Thanks for the info, I will keep it in my mind.

Investing in the Axis Allies (Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Finland) is currently not worth it, for either side - due to the events in war_entry.txt.

DarkHorse2 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:57 pm Investing in the Axis Allies (Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Finland) is currently not worth it, for either side - due to the events in war_entry.txt.

This is always been a thing, and for years with both WiE and WaW.

As a matter of fact there are some that house-rules (with MP)> No Diplo on Bulgaria, because apparently there is a way for the Allies to stop Bulgaria cold from joining the Axis.

Some matches house-rule no Diplo on Majors either. Even though Diplo on Majors is expensive...any lucky strikes on a neutral Major like the USA or USSR can really skew things. Of course this pertains to MP play, and some folks prefer not to use the former house-rule mentioned.

I would say Turkey and Spain are likely targets for embassy bribery and coercion. Sweden and Norway potentially are prime also, depending on circumstances.

Sorry Balthazor. Appears I am late to the party.

I can see going "all in" on Spain, Sweden or even Turkey. But Bulgaria?

Not seeing the need for a house-rule for Bulgaria.

Nabbing Hungary or Romania early at least gets you early access to Yugoslavia.

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 9:53 pm

DarkHorse2 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:57 pm Investing in the Axis Allies (Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Finland) is currently not worth it, for either side - due to the events in war_entry.txt.

As a matter of fact there are some that house-rules (with MP)> No Diplo on Bulgaria, because apparently there is a way for the Allies to stop Bulgaria cold from joining the Axis.

I would be interested to know how, as we may then possibly be able to make this house rule obsolete?

Thanks

Bill

BillRunacre wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:48 am

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 9:53 pm

DarkHorse2 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:57 pm Investing in the Axis Allies (Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Finland) is currently not worth it, for either side - due to the events in war_entry.txt.

As a matter of fact there are some that house-rules (with MP)> No Diplo on Bulgaria, because apparently there is a way for the Allies to stop Bulgaria cold from joining the Axis.

I would be interested to know how, as we may then possibly be able to make this house rule obsolete?

Thanks

Bill

I'm not exactly sure what the deal was with Bulgaria. It was a house- rule frequently used in the ELO tournament. Possibly someone can explain the details. I just mentioned it because Bulgaria was always listed specifically in addition to other rules, especially with 'No Diplo of Majors'.
Perhaps deep in the forum is the reasoning. I'll go ask around.

Depends, for the Germans I would usually say no. The value of Spain is questionable in strategic terms because while those Spanish units prop up the east that is a lot of extra coastline to defend. Turkey can help but in general the Allies have the MPP to burn to counter anything.

For the Allies spends on Sweden and Turkey can be productive or at least force the Germans to spend scant MPP they would rather spend on actual military uses.

As far as the default scenarios, I definately agree.

Let's consider Spain. It starts at Axis 12%.

Some improvements to that are:
- Landing an Axis unit in England (6-12%)
- Success in Egypt (6-12%)
- Fall of France (20-25%) (this is nice...)
- Allies loss Gibraltar (8-12%) (but without going through Spain... highly unlikely)
(and then some others if Allies are really dumb with DoWs...)

There is an event to intice Spain to join, but it requires Spain(60%).

So, assuming Allies spening nothing on diplomacy(not likely), and Germany takes France (highly likely), and is really successful in Egypt (toss-up)....

That will get Spain up to 44% (12% + 22% + 10%).

Still need another 16%....

A normal chit roll for Germany is 4-8% increase, with a 33% chance at a 8-16% increase.
Max chits for Germany (against Spain) is 3. (at a cost of 150 MPPs)

Those 3 chits should result in (on avg):
- an avg diplo increase of (4+8%)/2 = 6% each for 2 of the chits.
- an avg diplo increase of (8+16%)/2 = 12% for 3rd chit.

If my math is correct, that would result (eventually) in a 24% diplo increase. (which is enough to push Spain over 60%)

But even then, "DE 603 - Germany: Entice Franco To Enter The War?" is going to require an additional 800 MPPs!

So now, Germany is looking at 950 MPPs for Spain.

nah... I would rather just put that $$$ into research.

The diploking scoff at those shunning diplo and mock cowards houseruling it out.

Diplo momentum shift two time during the game. Phase 1: UK-France-Poland outchits Germany. Phase 2: UK is outchited Germany-Italy. Phase 3 USA-USSR joins and take momentum again.

During phase 1: Germany can't really strike first because UK and France can just out spend it as soon as Germany comits diplo somewhere. This would get them further back than they started. They better start their push in Phase 2. They can react to a ally diplo offensive to block it... or let it ride and go for another country of their own knowing their progress would not be impeded.

For the allies, phase 1 offer good opportunities. Poland and France won't last long no matter what one does and they can influence the rest of the game better with a couple of strategic diplo hit than surviving a couple of turn more/inflicting more casualties. Sell those polish planes... Crank out a diplochit... a 5% chance to influence spain is better than giving germans exp. If France and UK pool their diplo on a major you can make some game shaping gains (more/early lend lease, better prepared russians). If France is the one that has more chit spent on a country, its their chit that will be consumed. ie France 3 chits and UK 2 chits on USA, it will garanty that on a diplohit, france chit will be the one consumed, which will allow the UK to keep spending on its war preparation without overly draining its coffer.

An aggressive germany diplo must take into consideration its war aims. Getting Franco to join without the NA decision is near impossible which means you'd have to plan for conquering it to bribe him. For Turkey, you get a nice +40-45 (10% chance after owning london) from sealion. Another reason not to diplo early which would telegraph what area you are planning to conquer... Otherwise, Germany has to play diplo defense...

As the Allies I find diplo worth it as they have excess MPP they can afford to burn. In particular, getting rid of Sweden hurts the Germans isnt that tough and is a nice strat bombing platform. Other than that the only places that ever seem up for grabs is Spain and Turkey. Spain is of very qu8estionable value to the Axis as it just provides a ton of coastline for the Aliies to land on in exchange f0or some not very worth it fodder units for the east front. Turkey, sorta the same thing.

CharlesSwett... I read your reply and thought, "The latest segment of tonight's episode has been sponsored by..."