Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:59 am**

Should it be a house rule that you cannot combine American and British carriers into one fleet? This was the hardest thing I faced in PBEM. All American and British carriers in one fleet sitting at Christmas Island avoiding all air ranges and picking off fleets in the DEI. Should this be a rule since historically British and American fleets did not merge in the Pacific? Also how would you deal with this considering all exits from DEI are mined and coastal gun defended and thus you cannot reach them because any fleets attempting to mine-sweep are blasted into pieces? Any advice appreciated...

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:43 am**

Go anywhere else since it will be carrier-free. It will also give you a good head start on intel if allies wants to land anywhere (south)east. Alternatively, concentrate forces and go all-in.

Early, allies have two options, being strong somewhere or fleet-in-being. At least now you are set.

As for being ahistorical, IRL Brits got hit hard (force Z wiped away, and probably the CV too if it didn't get engine failure joining singapore) or a faraway secondary theater, they spent 80% of the time "defending" the indian ocean, Xmas island is one way to do it. Although I'm not sure the US would have been willing to be naked around Pearl east coast and Australia, early war intrroperability could have been possible, as it was latter with TF57.

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:42 am**

varsovie wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:43 am Go anywhere else since it will be carrier-free. It will also give you a good head start on intel if allies wants to land anywhere (south)east. Alternatively, concentrate forces and go all-in.

Early, allies have two options, being strong somewhere or fleet-in-being. At least now you are set.

As for being ahistorical, IRL Brits got hit hard (force Z wiped away, and probably the CV too if it didn't get engine failure joining singapore) or a faraway secondary theater, they spent 80% of the time "defending" the indian ocean, Xmas island is one way to do it. Although I'm not sure the US would have been willing to be naked around Pearl east coast and Australia, early war intrroperability could have been possible, as it was latter with TF57.

Without DEI oil Japan is toast. It is game over. You can't really afford to go anywhere else.

But that being said I was essentially doing that running wild in the south pacific taking Baker and Canton and Suva and Lunga and Efate and such as well as the Aleutians in the north. I was doing well everywhere but DEI because he just sat all of his carriers at Christmas Island and destroyed everything I had including mini KB. Thus I lost any opportunity of taking DEI.

So essentially going anywhere else does not work. I chose to attack Pearl and take Wake and Midway and then south. So he just went to the opposite side of the map combined all British and American CVs and destroyed everything I had.

If Japan cannot capture the oil they are finished. So I see now why all the best Japanese players send all CV's to DEI first turn instead of attacking Pearl.

If all of the DEI exits were not mined and guarded by coastal guns I might have had a chance to threaten but I could not get anything through. Christmas Island is basically the perfect hiding spot to raid as you please. How do you guys deal with Christmas Island?

Denying the DEI like this seems like the one and only best strategy for the Allies because it stops Japan cold. So if the Japanese player sends his carriers elsewhere this seems like the best strategy for the Allied player to play. Thus Japan must send all CVs to DEI everytime. Which is essentially why I wondered if it should be a house rule?

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:00 am**

There are advantages to forgo Pearl, since the targets are nice VPs but mostly irrelevant for a long time to come, and then KB is stranded in the middle of nowhere and has to burn fuel to come back

. As for oil... yeah the longer you wait the more chance they get damaged in a fight and it is not like the other sources can be taken without huge commitments eg indian oil.

I was replying mostly to the "not merge RN and USN CVs houserule" part rather than global strategic aims. Of course Japan can't be everywhere either and if you overcommit DEI then you have oil but Japan under bombs way earlier if you leave big chinks elsewhere.

I wasn't in your shoes, but did you commit the miniKB knowingly against the allied full CV fleet? I would rather merge both KB before a major early CV battle since you can't afford bad odds. I am not sure if risking the Yamato or something to suppress the CD is worth it. Or go crazy and land in Sidney supported by miniKB (I am crazy).

Japan is toast no matter what, except scen 2 and alike with pdu off vs AI and some luck. In any rate it is better than being an AFB and cry about gambits.

That's the fun of wargames, to overcome unforseen circumstances and find a solution to it.

Banzai

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:47 am**

Well, there's plenty of precedent of USN and RN CVs operating together. The game also allows a lot of ahistorical cooperation between the IJA and IJN. It's just part of the game.

There has to be a counter to a strategy of parking Allied CVs at Christmas IO, such as combining all your carriers and hitting him hard. You mention he had the straits covered. Could you not land elsewhere and take those straits (i.e. land on the north shore of Java and take the straits on each side of the island)? Your carriers can also strike 8 hexes away while his can only go 7. I've seen JFB's like John 3 masterfully make use of that one hex advantage.

I'm sure some JFB's will offer good advice if they see this thread.

Cheers,
CB

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:49 am**

There are a few things you can do as Japan, neither is decisive on its own, but put together... apologies for the obvious ones!

My main point is that you were too slow. By the time the Allied player receives & can physically move the CV's all the way to IO, you should have had a foothold on Java, but definitely on Sumatra. Airpower only cannot stop the IJA yet, once landed in-force.

Another thought: The Allies CAN put up a lot planes in the air, which tends to make the player over-confident, but their pools are very shallow early war. You can wear them down easily enough if you can set it up so your Zeros are defending against anything but 4E heavies. Killing off US Carrier air with Tojos & Zeros in well executed CAP traps is one of my great pleasures in life.

Impaling Netties on P-39 & P-40 traps is another one...

- as was said above, take Java & Sumatra from the 'inside' - land up around Merak & march down. Same for Java, do island hopping from Timor or pick one somewhere in the middle of the barrier. Easiest is probably to put up LBA cover from Borneo & land E or Soerabaja.
- cover the area around in subs - they will need to bring a lot of fuel to keep those ships running. Raid the ocean between Sumatra & India, with pickets along the W edge to see where convoys come in. You said you closed the route between US & AU, right? Why not if all his CV's are in the West?
- use your NAV bombers on long range Search mission with arcs NOT going over the base. You want the search planes to bomb tankers/support ships during the 'search' phase, not impale themselves on CAP
- sub minelaying into the path of those CV TF's

- heavy CAP over your oil - they cannot get 4E's to fly from Christmas island due to range & your fighters can deal with early-war CV air. In fact you want them to come out where you can engage them with land-based air!
- when you are ready, concentrate & sneak up on them from the North. Create a pattern or watch for one, and when they come out & their airgroups get banged up by land-based air, then pounce. If desperate, you can reshuffle/resize your CV airgroups to go heavy on Kates & strike at 9 hexes with bombs only. Hope your air training is up for covering the losses though!

I do not understand how ALL exits are covered with mines & CD guns... do you not control Timor?

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:30 pm**

varsovie wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:00 am There are advantages to forgo Pearl, since the targets are nice VPs but mostly irrelevant for a long time to come, and then KB is stranded in the middle of nowhere and has to burn fuel to come back . As for oil... yeah the longer you wait the more chance they get damaged in a fight and it is not like the other sources can be taken without huge commitments eg indian oil.

I was replying mostly to the "not merge RN and USN CVs houserule" part rather than global strategic aims. Of course Japan can't be everywhere either and if you overcommit DEI then you have oil but Japan under bombs way earlier if you leave big chinks elsewhere.

I wasn't in your shoes, but did you commit the miniKB knowingly against the allied full CV fleet? I would rather merge both KB before a major early CV battle since you can't afford bad odds. I am not sure if risking the Yamato or something to suppress the CD is worth it. Or go crazy and land in Sidney supported by miniKB (I am crazy).

Japan is toast no matter what, except scen 2 and alike with pdu off vs AI and some luck. In any rate it is better than being an AFB and cry about gambits. That's the fun of wargames, to overcome unforseen circumstances and find a solution to it.

Banzai

At this point I don't think I see advantages to attacking Pearl anymore.

Oh I would not dare throw BB's into those mine infested straights.

I had to commit mini KB to provide some CAP for my fleets and troops in Sumatra getting picked off.

Ok fair American and British CVs in one fleet allowed then.

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:37 pm**

CaptBeefheart wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:47 am Well, there's plenty of precedent of USN and RN CVs operating together. The game also allows a lot of ahistorical cooperation between the IJA and IJN. It's just part of the game.

There has to be a counter to a strategy of parking Allied CVs at Christmas IO, such as combining all your carriers and hitting him hard. You mention he had the straits covered. Could you not land elsewhere and take those straits (i.e. land on the north shore of Java and take the straits on each side of the island)? Your carriers can also strike 8 hexes away while his can only go 7. I've seen JFB's like John 3 masterfully make use of that one hex advantage.

I'm sure some JFB's will offer good advice if they see this thread.

Cheers,
CB

True about IJA and IJN.

Well his carriers there pretty much prevented me from doing any landings in Java. I did land and take Sumatra and marched down to Osthaven to try and take the base and clear the mines but then he just blasted my divisions with his carriers so I could not take the base. That was when I brought in miniKB to try and protect my troops and ships.

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:43 pm**

JanSako wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:49 am There are a few things you can do as Japan, neither is decisive on its own, but put together... apologies for the obvious ones!

My main point is that you were too slow. By the time the Allied player receives & can physically move the CV's all the way to IO, you should have had a foothold on Java, but definitely on Sumatra. Airpower only cannot stop the IJA yet, once landed in-force.

Another thought: The Allies CAN put up a lot planes in the air, which tends to make the player over-confident, but their pools are very shallow early war. You can wear them down easily enough if you can set it up so your Zeros are defending against anything but 4E heavies. Killing off US Carrier air with Tojos & Zeros in well executed CAP traps is one of my great pleasures in life. Impaling Netties on P-39 & P-40 traps is another one...

- as was said above, take Java & Sumatra from the 'inside' - land up around Merak & march down. Same for Java, do island hopping from Timor or pick one somewhere in the middle of the barrier. Easiest is probably to put up LBA cover from Borneo & land E or Soerabaja.
- cover the area around in subs - they will need to bring a lot of fuel to keep those ships running. Raid the ocean between Sumatra & India, with pickets along the W edge to see where convoys come in. You said you closed the route between US & AU, right? Why not if all his CV's are in the West?
- use your NAV bombers on long range Search mission with arcs NOT going over the base. You want the search planes to bomb tankers/support ships during the 'search' phase, not impale themselves on CAP
- sub minelaying into the path of those CV TF's
- heavy CAP over your oil - they cannot get 4E's to fly from Christmas island due to range & your fighters can deal with early-war CV air. In fact you want them to come out where you can engage them with land-based air!
- when you are ready, concentrate & sneak up on them from the North. Create a pattern or watch for one, and when they come out & their airgroups get banged up by land-based air, then pounce. If desperate, you can reshuffle/resize your CV airgroups to go heavy on Kates & strike at 9 hexes with bombs only. Hope your air training is up for covering the losses though!

I do not understand how ALL exits are covered with mines & CD guns... do you not control Timor?

I did not control Timor. I agree I was probably too slow and need to work on that. I did have Sumatra and Borneo and most of Celebes I just did not have Java, Timor, or Christmas Island. Unfortunately most of my subs were sunk by mines trying to get through those straights to reach the carriers. Merak was full of mines and coastal guns. My oil was protected by LBA so that was not a problem. Yes I closed the route between US and Australia somewhat he just had to go further south. Why not what if all his CV's are in the west? Nice tip about the search planes. The heavy on Kates with bombs is one I had not thought of.

Thanks for the tips everything helps!

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:50 pm**

Merak is an obvious place for minefields. You could have sent your subs through the Malaca Straits into the Indian Ocean and they probably would have had fewer problems.

Posted: **Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:58 pm**

RangerJoe wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:50 pm Merak is an obvious place for minefields. You could have sent your subs through the Malaca Straits into the Indian Ocean and they probably would have had fewer problems.

Yes I eventually had to do that but it took a very long time for them to go that route around north and then turn south all the way down to Christmas Island. By then I had lost the war when my invasion fleets and divisions had been decimated and control of the DEI was not going to happen....It really was a brilliant strategy and I commend my opponent for it. He obviously had a lot of experience doing this. He definitely taught me lots of lessons in my first ever PBEM game.

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:36 am**

Definitely does not require a House Rule since it is a tactic with an available counter. Your opponent did the right move by sending his CVs to where the KB isn't. Why should he be punished for that? Besides, you address this by either invading Java early or moving under cover of your land based air. You can see in the following AAR that I was able to fight through Allied CV intervention in the Java Sea with land based air alone:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=371514

Posted: **Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:53 am**

DesertWolf101 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:36 am Definitely does not require a House Rule since it is a tactic with an available counter. Your opponent did the right move by sending his CVs to where the KB isn't. Why should he be punished for that? Besides, you address this by either invading Java early or moving under cover of your land based air. You can see in the following AAR that I was able to fight through Allied CV intervention in the Java Sea with land based air alone:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=371514

Yes like I said it was a brilliant strategy and I commend him for it. Certainly not looking to punish or call anyone out. Just wondered if people did not like it for the unhistorical part of it. I'm assuming a lot of allied players probably do this then. Like I said it was my first PBEM and I learned a lot. I definitely need to learn to take Java and the rest of the DEI faster among other things. I am following several AAR's to see how to do this better. Unfortunately I could not cover Oosthaven and Merak from Singapore or Singawang or Kendari where my LBA was based and they were all set to naval attack and escort when he struck my land units from beyond my range. Thanks for the tip will check out the AAR! Nice to hear from one of the best!

Ah wow just read the first post of your AAR and I see we both had very similar plans. Will definitely read up!

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:34 am**

Tanaka wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:59 am Should it be a house rule that you cannot combine American and British carriers into one fleet? This was the hardest thing I faced in PBEM. All American and British carriers in one fleet sitting at Christmas Island avoiding all air ranges and picking off fleets in the DEI. Should this be a rule since historically British and American fleets did not merge in the Pacific? Also how would you deal with this considering all exits from DEI are mined and coastal gun defended and thus you cannot reach them because any fleets attempting to mine-sweep are blasted into pieces? Any advice appreciated...

Everyone that has posted bring up valid points but they seem to be missing the most obvious which is ABDA. That is what ABDA was established for. There were several joint operations with cruisers and destroyers in and around the Java Sea, but sadly the command was wiped out by the Japanese and was never reformed due to Adm King (USN). ABDA was established in Jan 1942 and Adm King (USN) was appointed CNO in March 1942.

Adm Nimitz (USN) and Adm Fraser (RN) wanted to start joint ops earlier in the war but Adm King (USN) wouldn't allow it. It wasn't until later when Adm King (USN) and Adm Cunningham (RN) became friends and Adm Cunningham with Adm Nimitz convinced Adm King (USN) to allow joint operations. Beginning 22 Nov 1945 there were formal joint carrier operations between the US and RN and continued for the remainder of the war.

It is conceivable that Churchill and Roosevelt could have insisted on ABDA being reformed. Since there is no real chain of command structure is abstract in the game it is possible that the major Allied leaders (Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin) could intervene and reform ABDA allowing continued joint operations.

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:26 pm**

Marauder11 wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:34 am it is possible that the major Allied leaders (Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin) could intervene and reform ABDA allowing continued joint operations.

They didn't have joint area of operation IRL (pacific vs indian) and "relativlty" light commitment on that theater. But you are right too because it was mostly Churchill's push that allowed cooperation and force allocation in 45 from the RN, more so since Britain had few to gain from operations outside its colonies. And USN high command wanted help more than pride.
Formally TF57 didn't follow US "orders", but did follow all "suggestions".

JanSako wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:49 am , you can reshuffle/resize your CV airgroups to go heavy on Kates & strike at 9 hexes with bombs only. Hope your air training is up for covering the losses though!

And you think that after a decade reading AAR and playing the game and dabbling guides/manuals I would KNOW the game...
Can you do the same Allied side to get 8hex bomber only?
I'm thinking night coastal raids.

Posted: **Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:38 pm**

varsovie wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:26 pm
Marauder11 wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:34 am
JanSako wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:49 am , you can reshuffle/resize your CV airgroups to go heavy on Kates & strike at 9 hexes with bombs only. Hope your air training is up for covering the losses though!

And you think that after a decade reading AAR and playing the game and dabbling guides/manuals I would KNOW the game...
Can you do the same Allied side to get 8hex bomber only?
I'm thinking night coastal raids.

That is what makes the game so enjoyable!

Posted: **Sat Jun 17, 2023 1:20 pm**

RangerJoe wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:38 pm
varsovie wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:26 pm
Marauder11 wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:34 am

And you think that after a decade reading AAR and playing the game and dabbling guides/manuals I would KNOW the game...
Can you do the same Allied side to get 8hex bomber only?
I'm thinking night coastal raids.

That is what makes the game so enjoyable!

Plus one....GP

Posted: **Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:17 pm**

JanSako wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:49 am If desperate, you can reshuffle/resize your CV airgroups to go heavy on Kates & strike at 9 hexes with bombs only. Hope your air training is up for covering the losses though!

This got me wondering if there are any players out there that have ever scrapped producing the Val altogether and only produced Kates etc the whole game for their carriers since the Val sucks? Is this even a doable strategy? Anyone ever seen this?

Posted: **Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:26 pm**

Tanaka wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:17 pm
JanSako wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:49 am If desperate, you can reshuffle/resize your CV airgroups to go heavy on Kates & strike at 9 hexes with bombs only. Hope your air training is up for covering the losses though!
This got me wondering if there are any players out there that have ever scrapped producing the Val altogether and only produced Kates etc the whole game for their carriers since the Val sucks? Is this even a doable strategy? Anyone ever seen this?

Vals are still useful and when the Judys come in with larger bomb loads, you will want those.

Posted: **Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:58 pm**

Vals are totally useful, I usually get much better hit rate with Vals than Kates which have a helluva time hitting DD's & other nimble ships, with torps or bombs.

The 250kg bomb on a Val is good enough for anything but BBs or Brit CVs.

My suggestion earlier was to unload the Val squadrons & resize the Zero & Kate's to say 60/40 or 50/50 carrier capacity & then conduct long range strikes where they have a less chance of retaliating. A good Allied player will have an aggressive TF commander, not sure they can react to a distance of 3 to reach with Air cover. If they react to just reach with unescorted DB's or TB's, your Zeros should eat them & ask for more.

Once the DS gets too big, you can try night attacks where they have a 0 chance of retaliating:
1. Start at 13 hexes away from the enemy base or known TF position - just outside effective Cat search range (unless they have many). You can keep a 100% day CAP in case of any surprises.
2. Set your CV's to go home, or wherever with a waypoint being your 'strike distance' of 9. Put up lots of night search and/or Recon, depending on the target.
3. They will make a night run of 4 hexes, then a night NAV or port attack - low level so you have a chance to hit something
4. In the next day phase they will do another 4 hexes away from the target. If you are lucky, they will go from undetected to undetected again.

The likelyhood or a critical success is not great, but 100% moonlight helps & the risk is low enough so if there is nothing else for you to attack, you can go places where you would not be able to during the day.

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