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Vic, check the ammo requirement/usage on the SAM launcher (that's the tank chassis mounted SAM). I have a battalion of 50 of them asking for 80,000 ammo. That cannot be right...?

Their ammo need was deliberately increased a few beta patches ago (1.21e), and it was really high even before that. So it's not likely it's unintentional.

1.21e patch notes wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:32 am-Increased SAM Launcher ammo cost from 200,300,400 to 250,500,800*

(That's per combat round, and units store double what they need, so 800 * 10 * 2 = 16 000 for one subunit, *5 = 80 000 for five subunits which the game displays as 50 SAMs.)

It's in line with how effective they are, but gets very silly in some cases, like when you have to strategically move them (80 000 ammo means 80 000 LP's to move...). 1.21 nudges added the ammunitions factory, so I'm not sure what's the actual Metal cost of the ammo.

Edit: With a lvl 4 Ammo Factory it'd cost 2667 Metal to produce 80 000 ammo, so around 75% of the total Metal cost of a SAM unit, actually less than it cost in the previous version (40 000 artisanally produced ammo = 4000 Metal and IP).

Actually, on closer inspection you're 100% right - the old ammo costs weren't 200, 300, 400 like the patch notes say, but rather 20, 30 and 40. So it seems that Vic increased the costs 10x on top of what he originally wanted to.

Edit: On top of that, SAMs didn't previously store two turns worth of ammo, so the old ammo stock was only 2000, not 4000. Is it the effect of Lightweight Ammo? It might be an unforeseen consequence if researching the tech increases the minimum ammo needed to form a unit.

As a general point about SAMs, presuming the issue of this report is fixed: they will only fight defensively, which carries a -90% modifier to ammo usage. So these exceedingly high ammo costs mostly affect the initial purchase cost, and logistical cost of strategic move. The latter makes them silly in my opinion, but it would be fixed if they were made to counter planes with full ammo usage, and the ammo requirement was decreased accordingly, lowering the LP requirement to move them (normal Metal and IP cost could be increased to compensate the initial purchase cost being decreased). Though I guess that can lead to other issues like baiting them to use all their ammo.

Whatever it was and why it got nerfed, it works poorly now. ONE BATTALION of those SAMs seems to impact ammo supply for the entire nation. That is not right and needs to be adjusted.

I am still finetuning the recent changes. Thanks for the feedback.

Already fixing glitch and 8000 ammo for heavy SAM is becoming 4000 ammo (for 10 combat rounds)

The recent ammo changes will indeed require some changes to strategic transfer costs I agree.

Vic wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:32 amChangelist 1.21o (#190) [...]
-Reduced Heavy SAM 10 round ammo from 8000 to 4000 *

Magirot wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:42 am Actually, on closer inspection you're 100% right - the old ammo costs weren't 200, 300, 400 like the patch notes say, but rather 20, 30 and 40. So it seems that Vic increased the costs 10x on top of what he originally wanted to.

I think you missed this part? (understandable since I buried it in my two rambling posts)

That is, the heavy SAM still requires 40 000 ammo in 1.21o, not 4000. Twenty-fold in comparison to before 1.21e, not two-fold.

Though if you divide their ammo usage by 10 now, the ammo requirement will be the same it was before the changes (40 per round), and the apparent difference when building them is only because of the effects of the Lightweight Ammo and Ammo Compaction techs, which together double the ammo the unit carries. The screenshot here has their effects since I took it with testmode, and I think they were active in solops' case too.

It would maybe make sense to change Light/Medium/Heavy SAM to what I assume you originally intended in 1.21e, 25, 50, 80 instead of 250, 500, 800, and make it so that Lightweight Ammo and Ammo Compaction don't affect the SAM Launcher (since as a defensive unit they only use 10% of what offensive units do, they don't really get much benefit out of the ammo carrying techs).







Edit: I feel like this post is still too confusing. Here's how the Light/Medium/Heavy SAM combat round ammo progressed between versions:

Pre-1.21e: 20/30/40
1.21e: 250/500/800
1.21o: 125/250/400

Pre-1.21e values were stated wrong (10x) in 1.21e patch notes, which I assume led to increasing the changed values too by same factor:

1.21e patch notes wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:32 am-Increased SAM Launcher ammo cost from 200,300,400 to 250,500,800*

Hi,

As I see it, the SAMs are in-line with the Ammo usage of the other weaponry (use Debug to compare ammo usage of the other heavy weaponry). Check for example rockets and ground-to-ground missiles.

The multiplicator that has been applied with the big ammo increase is roughly (with some exceptions):

Infantry / AT-Guns / RPG …. * 5
Aircraft bomb hatch / precision bomb.… * 5
Buggies / MGs / Motorcycle [motorized] …. * 10
Tanks / Afv / Aircraft (non bomb) … * 15
Artillery …. * 20
Missiles / Nuclear Other [ranged] … * 20

Bet wishes,
Vic

I am considering changing the two techs light weight ammo + compact ammo to have a different effect. Instead of allowing more ammo carry, it seems to make more sense to reduce actually ammo need + carry.

Vic wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:37 amAs I see it, the SAMs are in-line with the Ammo usage of the other weaponry (use Debug to compare ammo usage of the other heavy weaponry). Check for example rockets and ground-to-ground missiles.

This is what the Model Designer / Blueprint Designer state as the ammo usage of the weapons you mentioned:

Big Rockets: 132.5
Heavy Conventional Missiles: 480
Heavy Surface-Air Missiles: 400


However, when you actually build them (with testmode here), they seem to have some kind of a differing multiplier applied to them:

Big Rockets Rocket Launcher:
1990 ammo


Heavy Missile Launcher:
7200 ammo


Heavy SAM Launcher:
40 000 ammo



= Heavy SAM has more than five-fold ammo store compared to Heavy SSM, even though the stated ammo costs would imply the SSM should use more ammo. If the value was proportional, SAM Launcher should have 6000 ammo store here, not 40 000.

What do you know? You are right. I have been using the rocket/missile launcher values as reference. But they are are 1 combat round weapons, where the SAM can go to 10 combat rounds. Expect a change the upcoming new open beta.

Thanks for insisting