Matrix Games Forums

Hi folks. I'm finally getting around to experimenting with the intermittent emissions feature and in spite of reading the updated manual and watching P Gatcomb's youtube tutorials, I have a LOT of confusion about it all. So any advice or knowledge you all can share will be much appreciated. Here are some specifics that confuse me:

1. If you set a side to "Green" alert level, say, with radar active, does that apply to only SAM and fixed surface radars?? Or to ships (surely not aircraft, right) as well?

2. If we then can change individual units and groups to various intermittent emissions (on "Green" = radar active, Sonar passive, and OEM passive), then what reason is there for five different color alert levels? How do you all use them?

3. My military knowledge of radar tactics is very basic: So I get that one would want hard to find mobile units to emit sporadically to avoid easy detection, but that wouldn't apply to fixed ground radars, right? Since they are already easily known and spotted, wouldn't you want them to turn and burn constantly? And just well protected even with HARM threats nearby?

Again, any advice or knowledge on any of this would help a ton. Thanks!

Tred wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:23 am
3. My military knowledge of radar tactics is very basic: So I get that one would want hard to find mobile units to emit sporadically to avoid easy detection, but that wouldn't apply to fixed ground radars, right? Since they are already easily known and spotted, wouldn't you want them to turn and burn constantly? And just well protected even with HARM threats nearby?

I haven't used the Intermittent emissions myself, although I suspect they may end up being more useful for scenario builders for programing the OPFOR's emission behavior.

As for ground units, like fixed Radar and SAM sites, yes their position is known. However, if they are not emitting, they cannot be targeted by Anti-Radiation Missiles.

The North Vietnamese learned this very quickly, and developed Soviet-assisted tactics of intermittent emissions for their SA-2 Sites so as to only have their fire-control radars on as little as they needed, to avoid taking losses from Shrike (and later Standard) Anti-Radiation missiles.

More modern ARMs like HARMs may have advanced enough sensors to remember the heading of a Radar that it picked up and then stopped emitting, but that only works if the Radar was emitting to begin with when the missile was launched.

Thanks for the response, HalfLife.

I'm wondering though: If we have fixed SAM's, like SA-2's and SA-5's (along with fixed radar sites) I get shutting off to avoid any potential HARM threat if you know they are around. But since they're fixed and can be just as easily targeted by longer ranged stand off weapons these days, is there much of an advantage to intermittent emissions? Wouldn't it be better to keep them turning and burning (except in some cases if you know a HARM is imminent) and instead protect those fixed positions with point defense, so that you have better situational awareness? How do you think you'll utilize the "stay on if threatened" function in that case?

I do understand the necessity of intermitteng emissions for mobile radars and SAM's to try and delay giving away ones exact position. I'm just wondering if this is the only time I should, or most people do, use intermittent emissions.

Don't forget that CMO covers 70 years of warfare. From 1940s into the 70s, emission detection does not equal targeting capability if the emission is intermittent. If you have AAA around the SAM sites, you can keep aircraft away and keep the SAMs operational. This is the recon game. btw, an SA-5 is somewhat more mobile than an SA-2. Plus the radars can be separated from the missiles if needed.

Excellent point. I can definitely see the advantages in playing "old" scenarios.

For modern ones, I'm thinking that I'd only use intermittent emissions for mobile SAM's and mobile radars, and keep all fixed installations fired up...and just try to rely on integrated air defense...especially point defense...to protect them. Is that a rational strategy? The way most folks who utilize intermittent emissions use them?

I'd also like to know how folks use the various color alert level configurations.

Also consider the opposing sides. There are a fairly limited number of sides that have advanced elint and ESM capabilities in numbers to be an issue.

Indeed. Another good point!

Most of my scenarios I create are modern US vs near peers with similar capabilities. In that instance, would you use intermittent emissions for anything other than mobile SAM and radar units you want to delay immediate detection for? Or use them at all for fixed SAM and Radar positions?

Other dependencies are the other assets in the detection chain. Can I suggest just trying it out? Every scenario is going to be different in its set up. You'll quickly figure out what situations work best. Understanding the intricacies of intermittent sensor usage can really only figured out through usage.

Can I suggest just trying it out? Every scenario is going to be different in its set up. You'll quickly figure out what situations work best. Understanding the intricacies of intermittent sensor usage can really only figured out through usage.

Well, I mean, yeah. I do test it out and play. Usually my own created scenarios, and almost all of them very modern. That's why in general (and in addition to the other questions I ask folks about like how they set up their various color schemes etc.) I'm just seeing what others do in comparison to what I do. And as I said, with modern near-peer abilities, I only see (generally speaking when creating scenarios) some (only slight?) value in intermittent emissions for mobile SAM's and radars, since fixed sites are known locations and easily in reach of multiple stand off weapons. It seems to me (by 'trying it out' in the game) that a better strategy for fixed sites instead of intermittent emissions is to keep them on to maintain maximum possible situational awareness, and instead invest heavily in point defense. Those are the conclusions I've come to through playing and thinking about it all with my admittedly limited military knowledge.

Your points about non near-peer adversaries today, and past capabilities were great, and I agree completely with them. I'm just wondering about the conclusions I've come to regardring near-peer adversaries with the most modern capabilities. It seems to me that intermittend emissions in those situations do not provide nearly the benefits that they once might have or would still have if facing less sophisticated opponents, and might be detrimental to a better strategy...like my keep emitting and load up on point defense of fixed sites (and maybe mobile ones as well).

I'm asking because I'd really like to know from folks with better real world military knowledge (and who play the game a lot)...and because I suspect that maybe the game is biasing me in the direction of my conclusions that might not really account for how things work in reality. But that's just a hunch that I'd like to learn more about, so to speak.

With intermittent emissions, if you only let the radar rotate 3 to 5 times the opfor will only get a general idea of where you might be, not specifics, even with triangulation. They'll know your general direction but not distance, heading, or speed. Then by altering course and speed you can throw off their assumed calculations about what you're doing. Make it look like your traveling on a course of 270 when your actual course is 230, or an even greater angular offset.
For instance, I like to send a couple fast picket ships way out like 50 or so nm from the main fleet, and have them on intermittent EM while the rest of the fleet is silent. (Generally frigates and/or helos, which I send even further away. With an FFG/DDG it can also increase your outer IADS diameter) I'll have them dart off to the sides of the fleet, behind it, wherever the fleet isn't and on a course different from the fleet and have them emit awhile, then go dark and sprint off to stay within operations range of the main fleet; repeat. (I do quite wish there were a way to alternate emissions between multiple units, but oh well for now). With various alert levels set up differently. Perhaps at Green alert emissions will be on for 10 to 30 seconds (3 to 5 rotations, depending on the radar) then off for 30 minutes, with wake on hostile/unfriendly off. Blue the same but only off for 15 to 20 min and wake on hostile/unfriendly on (and turning back off after 10 to 20 sec if their emissions stop). And each alert level a bit more frequent and the radar on longer. I usually only use 3, maybe 4 alert levels; red of course being "everything full active." In tighter quarters I might only leave 'em off for 10 minutes -- much less I don't think is particularly useful as your position doesn't change very much at all, except with aircraft perhaps. One or two "pings" then off for 5 minutes; just a quick peek.
If using multiple radar pickets I'll set them to different time periods so it's less likely for them both to be on at exactly the same times, cuz that would nullify the tactic.
This doesn't just apply to ships either. Planes as well. With intermittent emissions between flights coming from many directions, you can make your incoming strike force (or what not) bounce all over the radar rather confusingly. And/or intermittent radar + D/OECM coming from one direction while the actual strike comes in silent and low from a completely different (or multiple different) directions, to get the targets to set their facings and defenses axises looking away from the actual strike force.
Also -- and I'm not sure if this matters to the AI -- if your radar is only "heard" a few times (once per sweep) they won't really be able to tell what type of radar it is, just, "Hey, there's some sort of radar over here." If you just leave it on they'll quickly be able to say, "Okay. This is an Aegis AN/SPG-62 Illumination radar," and thus know pretty much exactly what's out there. Which is to say: They won't know if it's civilian, commercial, friendly, hostile ... Just "some sort of ship is over there."
IDK if intermittent applies to sonar, but I don't think so. It matters way less anyhow because the direction is far more specific, the frequency of it tells you what sort of emitter it is (generally, what side and what type/class), and the signal strength can then give you an estimate of distance. Even just a couple pings, and there's no really no good reason to do just one ping unless you're trying to defect and covertly communicate with your destination's units.
I don't think it matters for O/DECM, or that intermittent settings affect it.

Of course, if your units have been seen there's no reason to use intermittent EMCON, light 'em up. And with intermittent EMCON your own situational picture is also more fuzzy; just a bit of a tradeoff.

Related, only turning on some radar -- such as generic navigation radar only -- could be useful to mask the true nature of the emission source. Never know what a "generic" radar could be, cuz everything has nav radar on. Well, should have for moar realzers. Civ and commercial I mean. And whales. I'm not sure if the AI takes that into account tho, so that might only be useful vs. humans. But you do have to manually micro that. Can't do intermittent-per-radar .... yet.

Example:
Mobile S400 batteries with a GRAVE STONE engagement radar and a CHEESE BOARD search radar may keep the radars off if a BIG BIRD battalion level jumbo search radar or A-50U AWACS is nearby and able to provide early warning, ideally there would also be a 3x Pantsyr close protection detail battery to provide 24/7 defense from the low altitude threat or when the battery is off/on the move. This provides a margin of safety for shutting off the radars as in the modern battlefield the usual MANPAD team isn't enough. Most Russian S400 batteries have at least two of these, but the ideal is 3 or 4 to form a full battery and complete the IADS. In real life they all share radar tracks if they are setup properly so a SHORAD battery co-located with a larger radar has its effectiveness enhanced.

Another thing to consider is that in real life radars can't operate 24/7, they have to shut down eventually and this means they will be targeted if the enemy has advanced ELINT assets in the AO. Sometimes it is thus better to keep them off until they are needed in a situation like the above if you have early warning with enough time to turn on the radar before the target arrives. Unlike in CMO they take a variable amount of time to warm up depending on size and tech level.

Tred wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:23 am 3. My military knowledge of radar tactics is very basic: So I get that one would want hard to find mobile units to emit sporadically to avoid easy detection

Yes, but not all the time. If you shut off the radar you can't see what may be trying to attack you until it is too late to power up and engage.

It isn't as risky on a modern era highly mobile SHORAD such as the Pantsyr-S2 because it has the ability to search and track with its independently rotating multi-spectral EO module and it is always harder to target something that is moving.

Tred wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:23 am but that wouldn't apply to fixed ground radars, right? Since they are already easily known and spotted, wouldn't you want them to turn and burn constantly? And just well protected even with HARM threats nearby?

Pretty much yeah, in the modern era any stationary SAM radar is obsolete cruise missile bait anyway and its destruction is inevitable.

Older ARM's can't track radars that are off or that shut off if they detect an incoming ARM before terminal range.
Some new ARM's like the US AGM-88E will remember where the radar was and have a separate IR or ARH seeker to aid engagement capable of finding targets that are moving or are off but that comes with a range penalty. Costs more than a passive seeker setup but is more effective as its target is forced to engage the ARM, they can't simply power off.
Most Soviet ARM's remember where the radar was and will attempt to guide with INS+Datalink but at a reduced accuracy.
Modern Russian ARM's like Kh-58UTSH and Kh-31PD all remember where the radar was and will attempt to guide with INS+Datalink.

Some countries produce realistic SAM site decoys that can even emit, plus other various countermeasures to ARM's.