Matrix Games Forums

in Southern Storm the order cycle (defined as the interval between orders, but also adding the time it takes to units ot react to new orders) is about 45'-1hr..and worse as a unit/parent HQ suffers casualties/gets tired

what 'd be the typical timescale of the order cycle in other wars at the regiment/battalion scale? Say WW2/Germans/Allies/Red Army or even back to Napoleonic wars...just as a broad comparison...

Disclaimer: I am considering developing some scenarios (as a player/user) for another Matrix WEGO engine ..and you guys are the experts on the topic .

I 'd be so excited for a WW2 expansion of your engine btw .

I can offer a few thoughts on the matter and see if I can get Jeff to comment further. As for Napoleonic times, I am no expert, but those order loops would depend on the commander's range and how fast an orders runner could go from the HQ to the suits on the field. This assumes he could find the unit and not get lost or killed in the process. As for WW2, need Jeff to chime in here, but the sides would vary greatly based on the availability and use of radios (for larger dispersed actions) and, in some cases, close interaction and the use of hand signals from exposed tank commanders as an example. Both cases would have a higher rate of units being out of command and trying to do whatever mission that last had orders for or dealing with the local situation the best they can with the local command.

CapnDarwin wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:09 am I can offer a few thoughts on the matter and see if I can get Jeff to comment further. As for Napoleonic times, I am no expert, but those order loops would depend on the commander's range and how fast an orders runner could go from the HQ to the suits on the field. This assumes he could find the unit and not get lost or killed in the process. As for WW2, need Jeff to chime in here, but the sides would vary greatly based on the availability and use of radios (for larger dispersed actions) and, in some cases, close interaction and the use of hand signals from exposed tank commanders as an example. Both cases would have a higher rate of units being out of command and trying to do whatever mission that last had orders for or dealing with the local situation the best they can with the local command.

Thank you for the quick reply and I hope Jeff chimes in too.

From what I have read it seems to me that in WW2 AT THE DIVISION/RGT level the assembly/advance/contact/reorganize and then advance (or retreat) phases were each a few hours long even for the best armies, with limited options for adjustements.
(even Rommel, a notorius tinkerer... had to jump onto the nearest armored car drive to the front, get lost, hide in a ditch figure out things and then radio orders...not a quick process when the enemy is shooting at you )

In worst cases contact to regiment or entire divisions was lost for hours (Summer 41 in Russia or France in 1940 come to mind)
But maybe things were different for the US army in 1944/45? What was Patton's 'order loop' time scale?

For the Napoelonic era yeah news traveled at horse speed so a few miles per hour at most.

What I am thinking is that In design terms for turn based games at the 1mile/hex+ scale[/b] there may not be much use for 'short' (say under 2-4 hour) turns, your units 'd not react that fast...but again, here is where I'd appreciate your opinion. Your system to describe 'order loops" is of course the most flexible and again, it'd be super fun to see it at work in a WW2 setting.

Thank you for a coherent summary up to WW II era regarding command cycle. Our game is very much about information, friction, dilemmas, and the Player's response to all those.

I do think there has been evolution over time o the "human software" regarding combat command and planning, so I am unsure about applying our models to other eras.

I think there are significant changes to the "Human Command Software" between the 1940s and late 1980s. By this, I mean "Decision Points" identified during mission planning.