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A new scenario for beta testing...

Cold War action as the Midway battle group and a fancy new SSN get involved with a bit of trouble with the Communist Chinese. This one is a bit complicated and a bit challenging, I think, so I'll be interested in hearing what people think of it.

As always, please, I'm looking for feedback on any and all aspects of the scenario. How well does it play? Is the situation plausible? Is it too hard or too easy or unbalanced in some other way? Are the orders clear, sensible, and do they sound like real orders? What errors need to be fixed? What else can I do to make the scenario more interesting, more challenging, more believable, and more fun?

Thanks in advance!

(The screenshot is from an earlier version of the scenario, so that's why the title is different.)

Version 4 posted 3:00 PM CST November 1, 2023

Most excellent!

It's a bit late in the evening for me to properly try it out, but I'll have a look and print out the description/briefing.

I've started my first run, but it will take me a while. It's neat that I've actually visited BOTH of the carriers in this scenario. (For those who don't know, Midway is in San Diego, CA and Hornet is in Alameda, CA)

First skirmish with the Red Chinese went very well. I spotted a group of PRC aircraft headed toward the carriers and dispatched fighters not on CAP to investigate. The first pair of PRC Fighters opened up, and the battle began.

It was a dozen MiG-15s vs 2x Crusaders, 2x Demons, 4x A-4Cs and 4x ROC Starfighters.

All 12 MiGs splashed with missiles and cannon, only one Crusader was damaged, basically a lucky shell knocked out it's Radar, but was otherwise alright.

Fighters are returning to Midway to prepare for round two.

I called an end to my first attempt when, after the second round of Air battle with MiG-15s, There was enough of a hole in my Fighter availability that I was unable to prevent at least one MiG-17 from getting through the CVBG's defenses and land a devastating bomb hit on Midway.

So I'm restarting, and reconfiguring the CAP mission that is pre-set up. I had previously been using the Missions as-is out of the box. I don't think the missions are necessarily at fault, but rather I was a bit too liberal with sending fighters that were not assigned to CAP farther out to do long range intercepts.

But based on this first attempt where my failure was largely my fault, my first impressions of the scenario are VERY good.

One note, although I don't think this is a scenario issue, rather a possible DB issue.

The F-3B Demons are armed with Sparrows, and the F-8 Crusaders are armed with AIM-9C Sidewinders (These are particularly welcome, as they are All-Aspect), but It seems that the AIM-9Cs outrange the Sparrows by about 2 NM. Is this correct? Shouldn't the Sparrows have a longer reach? or is it just an early model limitation?

I don't know that much about US AAMs prior to about 1964-65, so I'm honestly not sure.

UPDATE: I actually just did some rudimentary research online and it turns out the AIM-7C did have a rather lackluster range, and was only produced in limited numbers, so I don't think this is a DB issue. Just a limitation i'll have to work with.

So at this stage, I have no complaints about the scenario, yet at least

Nervous about those PRC subs though. Didn't locate any on my first playthrough.

I have about 1 day and 5 hours to go. After about 2 hours I was able to fix the locations of the two Chinese surface groups. Both were hit with 2-ship formations of Skywarriors and sunk. The first 3 Chinese waves have been defeated, but on a 4th wave one Fresco managed to hit Midway. It appears that whatever was on the deck is now toast. One catapult, a couple sensors and comms gear has been damaged, but not severely. In fact, in the hours since that attack some are well on the way to being repaired. No fires or flooding either, so Midway seems to have dodged a bullet. The Midway Task Group in now in the designated area of operations and I've re-armed everything that can be with AA loadouts. I've also increased the ASW patrols. The Sculpin SSN is creeping along, north of the carriers. No contacts other than civilian surface vessels.

Impressions:
- Current score is 1030 (it was higher but lost points for aircraft lost on Midway.)
- There's a lot of Chinese aircraft.
- The Chinese subs, thus far, are elusive and I'm not sure how much effort I need to put into finding them vs. just running out the clock in the AO.
- As with all your scenarios Mark, this one is good, very playable.

Here's a screen capture of the scoring graph. You can see exactly when the Midway was hit and the aircraft on deck were lost.

"Impressions:
- Current score is 1030 (it was higher but lost points for aircraft lost on Midway.)
- There's a lot of Chinese aircraft.
- The Chinese subs, thus far, are elusive and I'm not sure how much effort I need to put into finding them vs. just running out the clock in the AO.
- As with all your scenarios Mark, this one is good, very playable."

My impressions as well. Emphasis on a LOT of Chinese aircraft which sounds about right.

Love your scenarios Mark. Always excellent and thanks for doing this.

I've played through this another couple times.

It's a good scenario, but I just don't have enough planes or SAMs to prevent at least a couple MiG-17s from scoring devastating hits on Midway. The ship itself isn't in danger, but I lose a large chunk of my air group.
Ultimately I just get my fighters worn down fighting off the MiG-15s, to the point where there's just not enough ready to take on the attacking MiG-17s.

It seems to me that the only hope I have is to not bother with even engaging the MiG-15s, reserving everything for the MiG-17s, but that means no AEW or any other airborne aircraft prior to those strike planes being spotted, and leaving the ROCAF without help.

I can't say it's unrealistic for the PRC to hit me with such numbers, but perhaps as a counterbalance, set the proficiency of the PRC to Cadet or Lower? Maybe if they get through, they may not be trained enough for accurate anti-shipping bombing runs.

(Perhaps in this timeline, the Great Leap Forward leads to more discontent and perhaps violence, leading Mao to crack down harder, with a decrease in PLA combat performance due to purges. As a result, he decides on a Falklands tactic 20 years early as a way to unite the nation.)

I just think that given the numbers disparity combined with the USN tech limitations of the time, makes it inevitable that Midway will take a major hit that will remove at least half of the carrier's air wing.

With the new database and ability to restrict air operation to only those assets that are truly "day/night" capable there is the possibility that large numbers of aircraft, on both sides, will be sidelined during the hours of darkness. Something I discovered during one of the playthroughs via the editor. That particular option can be disabled if so desired, but does add a level of realism. It also lends to long periods of time, at night, when nothing flies except the handful of aircraft able to operate in the dark.

I don't recall if that feature is enabled by default on this scenario.

Just something to consider.

I may tinker with the number of aircraft...I'll assume Chinese relies on swarms of MiGs, but simply dropping it by 10% or 20% might be the tipping point that makes the scenario hard but not unwinnable.

Just curious...

Did anyone survive long enough to have to deal with the Chinese submarines? If so, how did people fare?

Oh, did anyone manage to fight the Bats? They're supposed to show up on the second day of the scenario.

Thanks.

schweggy wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:45 pm With the new database and ability to restrict air operation to only those assets that are truly "day/night" capable there is the possibility that large numbers of aircraft, on both sides, will be sidelined during the hours of darkness. Something I discovered during one of the playthroughs via the editor. That particular option can be disabled if so desired, but does add a level of realism. It also lends to long periods of time, at night, when nothing flies except the handful of aircraft able to operate in the dark.

I don't recall if that feature is enabled by default on this scenario.

Just something to consider.

It should be enabled, along with realistic communications for submarines.

Mgellis wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:23 am
Oh, did anyone manage to fight the Bats? They're supposed to show up on the second day of the scenario.

I've never gotten that far, since I consider the hits on Midway that I took to be a defeat. Losing half that carrier's air wing from one hit is devastating enough that I'm no longer confident in being able to maintain the station off China.

(Perhaps you could reverse the launch times of the MiG-17s and the Bats? Having the Bats strike first and then the MiG-17s wait until day two may be a better idea.)

Mgellis wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:23 am I may tinker with the number of aircraft...I'll assume Chinese relies on swarms of MiGs, but simply dropping it by 10% or 20% might be the tipping point that makes the scenario hard but not unwinnable.

Just curious...

Did anyone survive long enough to have to deal with the Chinese submarines? If so, how did people fare?

Oh, did anyone manage to fight the Bats? They're supposed to show up on the second day of the scenario.

Thanks.

I survived long enough to deal with the Chinese subs. I engaged and sank 3. I figure there's more, but so far that's all I've discovered.

I need to go back and finish out the scenario as there's still several hours left. I've re-armed most everything that can carry A2A load outs to just that since there's nothing left to bomb (and the airfields are single units, so that'd be a waste.) I'm not sure what I have left on Midway will suffice to brush back more than one more Chinese surge. And I'm low on AA rounds on the ships too.

We'll see how it goes. Should finish it off sometime today.

Just posted version 2. I reduced the number of Chinese aircraft and modified the timing of some of the attacks.

Please let me know if this is more playable (i.e., challenging but not impossible to win) and if there is anything else that needs to be fixed or can be improved.

Thanks!

I downloaded Version 2, but an unexpected error kept happening with normal Windows zip file extraction.

I was able to extract with 7-Zip (which was left over from using it to install older CMO betas).

I'd suggest checking again and re-zipping the file,

HalfLifeExpert wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:09 am I downloaded Version 2, but an unexpected error kept happening with normal Windows zip file extraction.

I was able to extract with 7-Zip (which was left over from using it to install older CMO betas).

I'd suggest checking again and re-zipping the file,

My version of 7-Zip (which is old) wouldn't even open it. WinRAR too.

BTW... I did finally complete the original scenario. Triumph. Losses to aircraft are biased against the successful attack on Midway. Actual losses while in the air were not all that bad... some from those pesky tail gunners in the Bats.

And the 4th PLAN sub managed to put a fish into the AO, but not sink it. I detached it from the group and sent it East... to deeper waters. The SSN was borderline useless in the shallow waters (as was briefed.)

Uploaded another zipped copy of Version 2. I hope this one works. Thanks.

Mgellis wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:11 pm Uploaded another zipped copy of Version 2. I hope this one works. Thanks.

Bingo

We're good.

Mgellis wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:11 pm Uploaded another zipped copy of Version 2. I hope this one works. Thanks.

Sweet! I'll check it out when I get home from work.

So I've mostly completed the playthrough of Version 2.

I've reached the Triumph Score of 900, so I've artificially called it, with the logic that the PLAAF has called off further sorties due to losses. The Bats never entered the fight as I reached this point far too early for them to join due to ready time.

It was a bloody battle. The Red Chinese took much more losses, but it was a tough fight. Never encountered the submarines, but I lost one Skyraider on an attack run on one of the Frigates. The other 3 Skyraiders each blasted the other ships. I didn't feel like wasting 10x Mk83s on a frigate by using a Skywarrior, so that last ship was finished off by my cruiser's 6 In guns.

The Skywarriors feel like dead weight since I can't strike the PRC airbases (due to them being Single Unit ABs). I would prefer the ability to strike those bases after the PRC demonstrates intent to attack Midway. Perhaps, along with making those two bases strikable (with AAA cover), a randomized time event where at some point after the PRC go hostile, you receive authorization from Washington to strike the airbases.

My ships took 3 hits ultimately. 2 separate destroyers each took a bomb hit, with one on fire and flooding. Got extraordinarily lucky (after some save-scumming) in that Midway took a bomb hit on one of it's elevators, but I didn't lose any aircraft in the hit.
I had been considering all hits to Midway at that point a defeat due to the devastation to the CVW.

(RPing as the CVBG Commander) When my ships get back to port, i'm going to demand a meeting with the Joint Chiefs and McNamara, on behalf of my airmen and sailors, over how ineffective my defenses were. My SAMs had a VERY high miss rate against targets coming in low and maneuvering. The AIM-9B can't fire on a target below 5k feet, so my Skyhawks could not contribute to the close defense of the carrier, since the MiG-17s outrun them even with a bomb load, so their cannon were useless. Even though we have won the battle, the USN REALLY needs to reevaluate and overhaul it's AA technology and doctrine. This was unacceptably close. We need better AND all aspect A2A missiles otherwise our ships are in serious danger.
If they don't listen, I will resign from the Navy and go to Congress. This was an embarrasment of the highest order
RP Over

While I can't say it's not challenging, the PRC aircraft attack profiles strike at the exact vulnerabilities the player's ships and aircraft have, making defense of Midway almost a dice toss.

One thing for sure that should be done, is that I found at one point that most of my ships had HE rounds pre-loaded for their 5-Inch guns, including those on Midway and Hornet. At the very least, the two Carrier's guns should be pre-loaded with VT Fuze AA Shells, so that the sailors don't chew up critical moments pulling them out from the magazines. As for the escorts, except for the Cruiser, they should also be pre-loaded with VT shells.
Midway's CVW and Providence's 6 Inch guns are plenty to deal with the surface threat.

Overall I like the scenario, but I found the results to be a bit too dependent on chance, given the USN tech limitations against the PLAAF attack profiles.

And things are most likely to be decided before the Bats enter the fight, so I think that one of two things should happen:

1) Arrange it so that the Bats are available to strike first, with most of the MiG-17s not ready until at least 12 hours into the scenario, perhaps the 2nd day like the Bats.

2) Just get rid of the Bats altogether, unless the ABs are made strikable.

Losses and Expenditures: (Score 910)

NOTE: I had several A/C damaged that are not listed, plus the damage to 2x destroyers and Elevator damage to Midway, so my casualties were worse than this list suggest.

SIDE: United States
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x A-4B (A4D-2) Skyhawk
2x A-4C (A4D-2N) Skyhawk
1x AD-6 Skyraider
1x F-8C (F8U-2) Crusader


DECOYS:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
15x 127mm/38 Twin AA-VT Burst [Anti-Aircraft Common, 2 rnds]
90x 127mm/38 Twin HE-PD Burst [HiCap, 2 rnds]
3x 127mm/54 HE-CVT [HiFrag]
50x 152mm/47 Mk16 Triple AP Salvo [3 rnds]
8x 152mm/47 Mk16 Triple HC Salvo [3 rnds]
2x 20mm M39 x 2 Burst [80 rnds]
48x 20mm Mk12 x 2 [50 rnds]
27x 20mm Mk12 x 4 [100 rnds]
15x 76mm/50 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]
26x AIM-7C Sparrow III
32x AIM-9B Sidewinder
54x AIM-9C Sidewinder
70x AN/SSQ-2 Jezebel LOFAR
24x Mk82 500lb LDGP
6x Mk83 1000lb LDGP
134x RIM-2E Terrier

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------
220x 127mm/25 Mk10 AA-VT [Anti-Aircraft Common]
200x 127mm/25 Mk10 HE-PD [HiCap]
800x 127mm/38 Twin AA-VT Burst [Anti-Aircraft Common, 2 rnds]
1400x 127mm/38 Twin HE-PD Burst [HiCap, 2 rnds]
40x 20mm M3 [200 rnds]
28x 20mm M39 x 2 Burst [80 rnds]
2x 20mm Mk12 x 4 [100 rnds]
4x 300 USG Drop Tank
490x 40mm/56 Mk1 Twin Bofors DP Burst [4 rnds]
680x 76mm/50 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]
600x 76mm/50 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
2x AIM-9B Sidewinder
48x Generic Acoustic Decoy
16x Mk14
8x Mk35
16x Mk37 Mod 0
8x Mk37 Mod 1
8x Mk82 500lb LDGP
2x Mk83 1000lb LDGP



SIDE: China
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x D 101 Anshan
2x F 507 Chengdu
3x H-5R Beagle
50x J-2 Fagot
23x J-5 Fresco C
2x Polikarpov Po-2


DECOYS:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
6x 100mm/56 Frag
39x 23mm NR-23 x 2 Burst [40 rnds]
3x 23mm NR-23 x 3 Burst [60 rnds]
58x 37mm N-37 Burst [10 rnds]
12x FAB-250M-54 GPB
2x FAB-500M-54 GPB

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------
594x 100mm/56 Frag
1200x 100mm/56 HE
96x 12.7mm/50 MG x 4 Burst [100 rnds]
1360x 135 mm/45 Model 1938 (AP)
1200x 135 mm/45 Model 1938 (HE)
56x 20mm M39 Burst [40 rnds]
45x 23mm AM-23 Burst [25 rnds]
337x 23mm NR-23 x 2 Burst [40 rnds]
121x 23mm NR-23 x 3 Burst [60 rnds]
45x 23mm Twin Burst [20 rnds]
416x 37mm N-37 Burst [10 rnds]
1080x 37mm/63 Triple Burst [30 rnds]
2160x 37mm/63 Twin Burst [20 rnds]
234x 400 liter Drop Tank
28x 53-39 Straight Runner
8x 53-51 Pattern Runner
24x 53-57 Pattern Runner [NATO 53-56]
60x 7.62mm ShKAS MG Burst [20 rnds]
472x Depth Charge [Generic]
8x FAB-1500M-54 GPB
114x FAB-250M-54 GPB
18x FAB-500M-54 GPB
48x Generic Acoustic Decoy
3x Generic Camera Pod [Visual]
3x Generic ESM Pod [Average]
3x Generic Recon Pod [Visual]
8x SET-53 [NATO ET-80A[60]]



SIDE: Neutrals
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


DECOYS:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------



SIDE: Taiwan
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x F-104A Starfighter
1x F-104B Starfighter


DECOYS:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
43x 20mm/85 M61A1 Vulcan Burst [100 rnds]
28x AIM-9B Sidewinder

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------
4x 170 USG Drop Tank
2x 195 USG Drop Tank
96x 20mm/85 M61A1 Vulcan Burst [100 rnds]
4x AIM-9B Sidewinder

I've made the changes to the gun settings.

I've also changed Triumph from 900 points to 1,500 points. You get points for staying on station until the scenario ends. The goal of the scenario is to survive the first day of air attacks and THEN the submarines show up at night and THEN the bombers show up the NEXT day (they were not ready on the first day but now the Chinese intend to make at least one last attack against the Americans). It's supposed to be a three-step gauntlet for the Midway and her escorts.

I will also change the Chinese air bases so they can be attacked, etc. and put in a message letting the player know when attacks are allowed. I like that idea...does the player take the risk of striking the air bases, which might cause more losses, or simply wait to see if more attacks show up?

I will post Version 3 shortly.