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There's a couple things in the TO&E I'd like to fix and I just can't figure out how. For instance US mechanized infantry platoons should have M-47 Dragons at the squad level, so 3 per platoon, not one. The Soviet “Sniper” tank companies did exist but I find it odd that CAT B-C units would have T-55 or T-62 and T-80B in the same company. I would like to figure a way to have Soviet tank companies with only one T-type MBY and NO snipers?

Any ideas?

Sounds like scenario design choices for both items. M-47s are an ATGM team selection for Mechanize companies. For the Soviets, what scenario had an odd mix of tanks with a tank and missile unit? That sounds like a design glitch that needs to be fixed.

Thank you for the fast answers but here is an example of a US mechanized company:

Mechanized Infantry Company with 13 x M113A2, 3 x M47 Dragon, 3 x 40mm Mk 19 GL, 2 x Headquarters, 9 x Mech Rifle (M113 Series H), 3 x 7.62 M60 MMG and 1 x M113A1 (20 lift required, 42 lift available). Total worth 596 Victory Points.

As you see there are only three M47 teams for the entire company. I believe the M47 should be an integral part in each of the nine Mech rifle platoons.

I'll see if I can't replicate the Soviet tank companies that have the odd mix of sniper tanks and old T types.

re: M47 density

My recollection is as of late-70's to early 80's, a Dragon Gunner was an ASI (Additional Skill Identifier, like being parachute qualified). So, there we local (Division level) schools to supplement the few infantrymen who were trained in initial entry training at Ft Benning. That was the bottleneck the limited the M47 density to one pre mech platoon.

Mid 80's in a Light Infantry Division, the AI was gone and Dragon training was decentralized to company level (I was an Anti-Armor Section Leader, 6 M47 teams). Late 80's I was assigned to an M113 mech unit as a squad leader. one M47 per squad.

By the late 80's M47 gunners were trained to engage tanks ONLY from flank, top, or rear aspects. Shoulder-fired AT rockets were to be fired in volleys of 4 from the same aspect (if you had enough rockets and troops to do so).

As to TOE structure, I argue that it makes sense to break the M47 team as a separate Subunit, owing to direct fire mechanics.

This is a helpful catch. Thanks. It's hard to get this perfect across so many nations and so many formation types, especially when you are striving to get org and equipment on a particular date correct.

CapnDarwin wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 4:16 pm Sounds like scenario design choices for both items. M-47s are an ATGM team selection for Mechanize companies. For the Soviets, what scenario had an odd mix of tanks with a tank and missile unit? That sounds like a design glitch that needs to be fixed.

Here is a sample Tank Rgt (TD) from the editor, CW 80s Soviet Union (1980-1989), <TD/MRD Formations (84-)>,date 05/05/1982. Note the 68x T-62 and all the lesser T-types are only given the choice of the T-80B[M] and T-64B[M] to round out the Rgt.

'Tank Regiment (TD) with 33 x BMP-2PG[M][G], 14 x BMP-Ksh, 4 x Scout, 3 x 30mm AGS GL, 10 x Headquarters, 27 x Mechanized Infantry, 3 x Igla-1 SAM, 2 x BRDM-2Rkh, 3 x BRM-1K Korshun[T], 4 x BRDM-2[G], 4 x 2S6 Tunguska, 4 x Buk, 68 x T-62, 27 x T-80B[M] and 4 x GAZ-66 (47 lift required, 173 lift available). Total worth 8,060 Victory Points.

IronMikeGolf wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:10 pm re: M47 density

As to TOE structure, I argue that it makes sense to break the M47 team as a separate Subunit, owing to direct fire mechanics.

This is a helpful catch. Thanks. It's hard to get this perfect across so many nations and so many formation types, especially when you are striving to get org and equipment on a particular date correct.

I agree Jeff, lots of work with all this TO&E stuff. It would be good to see the M-47 at the squad level.

What are your thoughts on having the US Mech Co's with Mk-19's and TOW's? Seems to me these were not choices in Mech units at company level? It would be nice if you could unslect the Mk-19 for a company.

Jim,

Looks like 1-1-1983 it sorts out.

Tank Battalion (MRR) with 1 x BMP-Ksh, 28 x T-62M1-2 and 12 x T-62M[M] (2 lift available). Total worth 1,767 Victory Points.

Checked the Soviet data, and it looks like there is a correct T-type of tank for each model with and without the ATGM. I made one data fix-up in the T-80Us for a bad starting date, but they have a matched ATGM version as well. Thanks for looking.

dpabrams wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 10:25 pm

IronMikeGolf wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:10 pm re: M47 density

As to TOE structure, I argue that it makes sense to break the M47 team as a separate Subunit, owing to direct fire mechanics.

This is a helpful catch. Thanks. It's hard to get this perfect across so many nations and so many formation types, especially when you are striving to get org and equipment on a particular date correct.

I agree Jeff, lots of work with all this TO&E stuff. It would be good to see the M-47 at the squad level.

What are your thoughts on having the US Mech Co's with Mk-19's and TOW's? Seems to me these were not choices in Mech units at company level? It would be nice if you could unslect the Mk-19 for a company.

Concur on the Mk-19s. For TOW, I think it's appropriate to have them as an anti-armor company, each platoon having 2 section of two TOWs each (M150 or M901) and then let the player attach to companies as desired.

CapnDarwin wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:05 pm Checked the Soviet data, and it looks like there is a correct T-type of tank for each model with and without the ATGM.

Jim,

This in a shot from the editor scenario dated 4/23/1982. The only missile tanks are the T-64B[M] and T-80B[M].

Sorry to be a pain but will the M-47's be added to the TO&E at squad level?

Pete

I'll talk with Jeff this evening in our Dev call and see what changes need to be made for the M-47s and M-19s.

As for the Soviet tanks, it is what it is for those formations due to the date and selection criteria. We have no means to do a formation level "or" selection. The options would be to copy the formations affected and make a pure tank-type setup. The other option is to use it as is and then do an XLS export, edit the scenario data you make, replace the missile tanks with the other selected type, and then do the XLS import and save.

Maybe in the future, we will figure out a means to do a variable selection and update all the files.

Jim,

Appreciate you looking into this and I will look into the import export XLS scenario file.

Pete

Pete, if you have any questions please let me know. We can do a Zoom meeting to show you the ins and outs if you want.

I can just define the ammunition loadout and delete the [M] for now. In the case of the T-62 it needs adjusted to something like 20 HE, 6 HEAT and the rest APFDS.

That is a good solution as well.

Getting back to the M47 issue here is what I found. US mechanized infantry platoons and companies have assigned M2HB, Mk-19’s and M-47’s sections in game. I don't think these weapons we're typically assigned at platoon and company level in actual mechanized infantry formations.

I did find the M-47 actually assigned to US 514 Mech Rifle (M113 Series H) and US513 Mech Rifle (M2 Series J) units in the Integrated Weapons List. This would be correct. However, these additional M2HB, Mk-19’s and M-47’s sections assigned to US infantry companies may add too much additional firepower to these units.

For example, a US 514 Mech Rifle platoon (M113 Series H) has 4- M113 Series H Mech rifle squads each with a Dragon II. The platoon also has an additional M-47 (Dragon I)section assigned.

CapnDarwin wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:42 pm I'll talk with Jeff this evening in our Dev call and see what changes need to be made for the M-47s and M-19s.

Here is what I have managed to figure out in the formations for a US Mech Inf Co early 80's-DPA 80s:

14 x M113A2, 1 x 50 Cal M2HB HMG, 12 x Mech Rifle, 1 x M47 Dragon and 1 x Headquarters (14 x APC, 13 x Inf, 1 x AT and 1 x HQ)

I have reduced the Mech Rifle platoon to just APCT*4, INFME*4.I removed the INFMG as this is part of a subunit already (M60). I added the M47 to the US511 subunit (9-man Sqd as I don’t think M113 had 11-man squads at this time). I retained a INFMG and INFAM (M47) with the company headquarters.

It seems the Soviet MRR and other regiments have 3 times the artillery assigned to them. According to FM 100-2-3 The Soviet Army Motor Rifle Regiments should have one Battalion of artillery with a total of 18 towed or SPA (3x batteries w/ 6 systems.. In game there are currently are 54 artillery systems per Rgt.

Here is the culprit:

<TD/MRD Formations (84-)>


Motor Rifle Regiments <2
Motor Rifle Regiment (TD) RUN1 [name] RUN2, RUQ1*3, RUP1, RUN3, RUN7, RUN11*3, RUN14
Motor Rifle Regiment (MRD-BMP) RUN1A [name] RUN2, RUQ1*3, RUP1, RUN3, RUN7, RUN11*3, RUN14
Motor Rifle Regiment (MRD-BTR) RUN1B [name] RUN2, RUR1*3, RUP1, RUN3, RUN7, RUN12*3, RUN14

I will review the formations today and verify any issues and make corrections. Thanks for the input.