1.21v Minor AI vassalised on turn 4/5 !?!

[Arralen]

Started a new playthrough with the latest beta patch. Went for a 2-zone start with 4 councils (got Foreign Council).
Found a major AI (Republican) directly bordering me (despite "spread out" active), and a minor AI ("Commune", which is farmers I think?).
When I finally got some info on the minor in turn 5, it was already vassalised by my neighbouring major AI.
How did the AI manage that? Is it supposed to?
I mean - it's making player diplo with minors pointless ... .

[Xxzard]

The situation you describe seems very possible for the AI. I don't know exactly how the AI allocates it's budget and priorities, but it seems very feasible on 2 zone 4 council start for an AI major to propose peace, make protectorate, and vassalize a minor bordering farmer AI minor within 5 turns with good rolls on 2 or 3 stratagems. The Major AI certainly seems to prioritize doing so if it has a chance, and why not? It's a good strategy.

Up until the last year or so, Major AIs did not vassalize minor AIs at all. Folks complained that it felt borderline exploit for the player to vassalize minors when the AI could not, especially given you used to be able to easily take over any farmer minor even across the map or on islands. So the 2 key changes were allowing the AI to do it to compete with the player and making it much harder to vassalize when you don't have a shared border.

So I think the balance Vic is trying to strike here is making the single player experience against the AI balanced so that you are in competition with AI majors to establish a border and vassalize the minor AIs. In your case, say that you invested more in foreign affairs council, or had a good leader in your diplo council, or that you randomly started with more minor diplo stratagems and at least one spy stratagem. You could very feasibly do the same thing the AI did by round 5.

[borislav]

I have experienced same as Arralen explained.
It feels like cheat to manage so early to vassalize minor.
I even wonder if you as player can make it so early (to get relation high, to get stratageme and to pass the roll...).

[Xxzard]

I just played a game on patch 1.25 (hard, tech 3, city state start, no councils) where I vassalized a neighboring minor AI on round 5.

Round 1: I noticed I have a neighboring minor, so I decided to get foreign affairs council first.
Round 2: I allocated 40 % budget to foreign affairs council, and sent a spy to the minor AI.
Round 3: I attached my advisor to help foreign affairs council, and tried to propose peace to the minor AI - odds were about 60% in favor - they refused.
Round 4: I sent another spy to the minor AI. During turn resolution between 4 and 5, the minor AI proposed peace - I accepted - this gave +60 relation bonus.
Round 5: I sent another spy and played offer client stratagem - odds were about 50% - they accepted.

So there you go, only 1 turn later than the AI, and I had very poorly talented people and only needed to make 1 50% chance roll.