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Does anyone have a save (or saves) that will allow us to duplicate a series of attacks that end in massive losses to the defender that has been attacked and retreated multiple times in the same turn? We're going to look at this in the future to see if there is a game option that can be added that could reduce the high end losses. What we could really use is a few saves with instructions of what unit we should attack. What helps the most is having before and after saves, along with instructions on where to look in the after save to find the combat reports (so we know what to duplicate). Armed with these saves, we can test out any changes to see if we're getting the desired results. You can either email the saves and info to 2by3@2by3games.com, PM me and attach the saves, or zip them and attach them to a post here.

We have already given the go ahead to add a game option in the future that will allow players to adjust the ground national morale levels individually for each of the 7 combatant countries. Each country could be adjusted between 0 and +20. This would allow players to increase all ground national morale values by some number (+10?) in order to make the lower morale units less brittle and susceptible to grinding. It could also be used by players wishing to increase the NM of some of the Axis Allied countries.

While we like the way the game is now, we're looking to provide some options for those of you looking for a change. Please get those saves to us. Thanks.

Saves ---

Before: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 5_Axis.psv

After: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... s_Done.psv



This is an early turn (turn 5) from my Soviet game against Vet. He inflicted ~271k losses just from deliberate attacks (0 pockets), with ~252k of those from the Axis action phase. It includes a good number of follow up attacks, although a large number of losses are also just from initial attacks as well.

It is not necessarily the best example of set-piece grinding where you herd a triple stack to a particular hex (other people should have saves for e.g. retreating a stack of rifle corps and hitting it with a follow up for 1 particular battle with huge losses), but it shows generalized mass grinding over a larger number of smaller battles. So it is not just 1 shocking screenshot showing 30k losses on a single battle etc.

Since the front line was not yet really settled, it also is not really dependent on herding per se, but just normal retreating and follow up attacks with generally reasonable retreat paths. It also shows why it is a bad idea for Soviets to try to defend at all forward like they did historically, even if there is 0 real risk of pockets. I was aware that this was probably not the best strategy, but I wanted to try to play somewhat historically to have a "proper game."

When I say "attack" it means a deliberate attack, for hasty attacks I will specify it is hasty. In parentheses after listing what units attack, I will list support units that were attached to divisions.



Mykolaiv/Kherson/Krivoi Rog area:

1) Attack 226, 197 (Nikolaev) with 10th motorized division (attach 44th pioneer, 500th zbv bicycle,70th pioneer)
2) Follow up attack retreated unit (227, 198) with 10th Panzer (+3/55 SP flak) - should inflict 100% losses or so
3) Hasty attack 232, 194 with Das Reich
4) Hasty attack 231, 189 with Slovakian mobile brigade
5) Attack 229, 188 with 25th motorized (+652nd pioneer, 3/48th mot light flak)
6) Follow up hasty attack retreated unit (228, 189) with 8th Rum Cav
7) Follow up hasty attack retreated unit (228, 189) with 8th Rum Cav (if it held previously)
8) Follow up hasty attack retreated unit (229, 189) with 2nd Hun mot (if it still has not routed/shattered)
9) Hasty attack 232, 191 with 13th Panzer (+560 Pzrjaeger battalion, 4/66 light flak)

Kyiv/Cherkasy area:

10) Hasty attack 221, 178 with 262nd Infantry division
11) Attack 214, 174 with 298th ID (+654, 655, and 658th pioneer), 9th Panzer (+213th and 260th pioneer and 3/47 light flak)
12) Attack 215, 175 with 9th ID, 71st ID (+660th, 662nd, and 672nd pioneer), 9th Light division, and 16th Motorized (+10th Mot MG battalion, 652nd light flak)
13) Attack 215, 174 with Wiking (+4th Mot MG, 14th Mot MG, and 1/55th light flak), 16th motorized (+10th Mot MG, 6/52nd light flak), and 18th Panzer (+5th Mot MG, 9th Mot MG, 631st light flak)
14) Follow up attack 215, 173 with 29th ID, 29th Motorized (+1/59th light flak) - should inflict 20k losses or so
15) Follow up attack 214, 173 with Wikking (+4th Mot MG, 14th Mot MG, and 1/55th light flak), 3rd Panzer (+6/59th Light Flak) - should inflict 20k losses or so

Also pause to notice that Kyiv is falling about 8 turns faster than historical and there is nothing that can stop that from happening, even triple stacked divisions lined up along the Dnepr commanded by good generals like Malinovsky and Vasilevsky

16) Follow up attack 216, 174 with 17th Panzer (+1/66th light flak) and 14h Panzer (+2/608th light flak) - should inflict ~17k losses or so. You might be able to get up to 30k or so especially if you could find a 3rd division to whack it with.
17) Attack 212, 171 with 62nd ID (in this case it was 100% losses, around 8k, and 99:1 odds despite the swamp + major river).
18) Attack 218, 177 with 295th and 75th ID


Pskov area:

Note, the reason for the slow Axis advance here was that Vet did the HLYA opener and was not really trying to advance in the north. I was trying to punish that by holding strongly in the north, but it is sort of pointless given the unsustainable losses.

19) Attack 188, 122 with 1st and 217th ID
20) Hasty Attack 188, 121 with 217th ID
21) Attack 189, 124 with 291st ID
22) Follow up attack 190, 124 with 3rd Motorized (should inflict 10k losses or so)
23) Attack 189, 129 with 269th ID
24) Attack 189, 131 with 36th Motorized (+243 Stug, 671 Pioneer, and 4/59 light flak)
25) Follow up Attack 191, 130 (this is against the same 88th rifle division attacked in the previous attack) with Polizei Infantry div - should inflict 100% losses or so
26) Attack 191, 129 with 122nd ID
27) Attack 191, 128 with 19th Panzer (+ 215th and 255th pioneer and 604th light flak)
28) Attack 193, 131 with 12st and 86th ID
29) Follow up attack 194, 130 with 6th Panzer - should inflict around 10k losses
30) Attack 195, 131 with 253rd ID (+3/52nd light flak)
31) First attack failed, so attack again with 5th ID


Vitebsk-Mogilev area:

32) Attack Vitebsk with 17th and 32nd IDs
33) Follow up attack wherever the 2 Soviet divisions retreat, in this case... 204, 138 with 12th Panzer (+4/52nd light flak) - should be 100% losses or so
34) Follow up attack wherever the 2 Soviet divisions retreat, in this case... 202, 137 with Totenkopf - should be 100% losses or so
35) Hasty Attack Orsha (204, 143) with 106th ID

Gomel area:

36) Attack 206, 150 with 206th ID
37) Hasty attack 206, 152 with 206th ID
38) First attack failed, so hasty again with 162nd ID
39) Attack 206, 153 with 162nd ID
40) Attack 207, 154 with 134th ID
41) Attack 207, 156 with 292nd ID
42) Attack 207, 155 with 78th ID
43) Follow up Attack 207, 153 with 112th ID and 8th Panzer (+4//48th light flak) - should be 10k losses or so.
44) Attack 207, 157 with 258th ID and Lehr Mot Brigade
45) Follow up attack 208, 156 with 252nd ID and 20th Panzer (+607th light flak and 271st and 278th Flak) - should be about 10k losses. Basically the division that retreats there and for whom it is the 2nd battle takes 100% losses, while the division that was there from the start of the turn and for whom it is the first battle takes normal losses. In general that is how it goes with these.
46) Follow up Attack 208, 154 with 14th Motorized (+6/55th light flak), 20th Panzer (+271st and 278th Flak and 607th light flak), and 131st ID
47) Attack 208, 155 with 45th ID
48) Attack 209, 156 with 20th Motorized (+1/52nd light flak)
49) Follow up Attack 208, 157 with 18th Motorized (+746th and 751st pioneer and 5/55th light flak) - should be about 10k losses, again the previously beaten division takes 10k losses while the other division takes normal losses.
50) Attack 208, 158 with 263rd ID
51) Attack 209, 162 with 8th SS cavalry
52) Attack 208, 162 with 8th SS cavalry

Mogilev-Orsha area:

53) Attack 205, 144 with 31st ID (+744, 743, and 745 Pioneer)
54) Attack Mogilev 205, 147 with 8th ID

Gomel-Kyiv area:

55) Attack 210, 167 with 167th ID (+ 651, 676, and 505 pioneer)
56) Attack 208, 165 with 1st Cavalry division
57) 209, 160 with 8th SS cav


There are supposed to be 58 attacks, but I only have 57, so I probably missed one somewhere. Shouldn't matter much.


By the way, if there is an Axis player out there who is good at making pockets and wants to test out what Axis could have done if instead they went for pockets rather than grinding against this defense, the game is over and so PBEM password from Vet could probably be shared (or maybe changed). If anyone wants to try that and then show the resulting pockets, if you send the save back I could try to break the pockets. If the pockets can be broken, then probably that would show that pockets are inferior to grinding. Of course, I would have set up my defense differently if I had been playing someone else who I knew was more likely to go for pockets, but nevertheless I bet it is probably pretty difficult to get good pockets which can actually also be held, certainly in comparison to what you can do just by grinding.

How does one view a .psv file?

Asking for a comrade

loutro wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:52 am How does one view a .psv file?

Asking for a comrade

You need the password.

Joel Billings wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:08 pm
While we like the way the game is now, we're looking to provide some options for those of you looking for a change. Please get those saves to us. Thanks.

In the future, do you plan to make more changes, especially for the top gamers, like increasing the fog of war effects, diminishing reconnaissance, or making less predictable the retreat path?

Or in short, perhaps you have too much information of the opponent side?

Joel Billings wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:08 pm Does anyone have a save (or saves) that will allow us to duplicate a series of attacks that end in massive losses to the defender that has been attacked and retreated multiple times in the same turn? We're going to look at this in the future to see if there is a game option that can be added that could reduce the high end losses. What we could really use is a few saves with instructions of what unit we should attack. What helps the most is having before and after saves, along with instructions on where to look in the after save to find the combat reports (so we know what to duplicate). Armed with these saves, we can test out any changes to see if we're getting the desired results. You can either email the saves and info to 2by3@2by3games.com, PM me and attach the saves, or zip them and attach them to a post here.

Another way to mitigate this might also be to increase the MP penalty cap for combat in a hex.

Joel Billings wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:08 pm We have already given the go ahead to add a game option in the future that will allow players to adjust the ground national morale levels individually for each of the 7 combatant countries. Each country could be adjusted between 0 and +20. This would allow players to increase all ground national morale values by some number (+10?) in order to make the lower morale units less brittle and susceptible to grinding. It could also be used by players wishing to increase the NM of some of the Axis Allied countries.

While we like the way the game is now, we're looking to provide some options for those of you looking for a change. Please get those saves to us. Thanks.

Nice! While I know you are checking the thread, in the editor it would be nice if one could have a "total losses" event parameter so that NM reductions can be triggered once certain loss levels are reached.

Vanilla StB. Attacks near Chernigov. Numbers are not so big as for Soviets when they explode, but current numbers will make sure that German IDs are out of action for a couple of turns.

Regarding the Beethoven save, i don't think that turn represents a "typical" turn that can be repeated as the game goes on. +100k soviet losses in 41 is fairly achievable though.

In this game, there was heavy contact across most of the line (other than the far south) and Axis infantry was only reaching the frontline for their first few attacks so they were fresh. As soviets was defending forward, i had enough MPs to attack with most units rather than having to make a decision between moving or attacking. The vast majority of battles were also on single stacked soviets in clear hexes without any fortifications so what CV i did have went far.

Joel Billings wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:08 pm Does anyone have a save (or saves) that will allow us to duplicate a series of attacks that end in massive losses to the defender that has been attacked and retreated multiple times in the same turn? We're going to look at this in the future to see if there is a game option that can be added that could reduce the high end losses. What we could really use is a few saves with instructions of what unit we should attack. What helps the most is having before and after saves, along with instructions on where to look in the after save to find the combat reports (so we know what to duplicate). Armed with these saves, we can test out any changes to see if we're getting the desired results. You can either email the saves and info to 2by3@2by3games.com, PM me and attach the saves, or zip them and attach them to a post here.

We have already given the go ahead to add a game option in the future that will allow players to adjust the ground national morale levels individually for each of the 7 combatant countries. Each country could be adjusted between 0 and +20. This would allow players to increase all ground national morale values by some number (+10?) in order to make the lower morale units less brittle and susceptible to grinding. It could also be used by players wishing to increase the NM of some of the Axis Allied countries.

While we like the way the game is now, we're looking to provide some options for those of you looking for a change. Please get those saves to us. Thanks.

You can pull my turn 8 that I received today in my game (German = Jasonbroomer vs Soviet HardLuckYetAgain). This is a perfect example of Germans taking next to no losses on attacks. It is the same question I asked in WITE1, "Are the Germans Supermen"? Really seems that a penalty exists for the Soviets for the whole game.


Let me know once you pulled the file so I can start the turn. Thank you much!

Joel Billings wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:08 pm Does anyone have a save (or saves) that will allow us to duplicate a series of attacks that end in massive losses to the defender that has been attacked and retreated multiple times in the same turn? We're going to look at this in the future to see if there is a game option that can be added that could reduce the high end losses. What we could really use is a few saves with instructions of what unit we should attack. What helps the most is having before and after saves, along with instructions on where to look in the after save to find the combat reports (so we know what to duplicate). Armed with these saves, we can test out any changes to see if we're getting the desired results. You can either email the saves and info to 2by3@2by3games.com, PM me and attach the saves, or zip them and attach them to a post here.

We have already given the go ahead to add a game option in the future that will allow players to adjust the ground national morale levels individually for each of the 7 combatant countries. Each country could be adjusted between 0 and +20. This would allow players to increase all ground national morale values by some number (+10?) in order to make the lower morale units less brittle and susceptible to grinding. It could also be used by players wishing to increase the NM of some of the Axis Allied countries.

While we like the way the game is now, we're looking to provide some options for those of you looking for a change. Please get those saves to us. Thanks.

Very good that u are going to add that game option! The Axis minor allies where historically better than presented in the game. You are doing a good job adressing the forums different relevant critics, especially to fix the CCP-problem was a great shift in the right direction. That you are adressing grinding and morale issues is a big plus for already great game!

It's hard to use server saves for this because I need before and after saves and someone pointing me to where I need to look to reproduce battles.

Battles near Ternopil (Ternopol on the map). Ukraine.
First Second Saves:

From the latest example, those German elements that were previously damaged from the earlier retreat result are pretty much toast when forced to retreat / rout again in subsequent combats.

It is those retreats that kill you in WiTE2 (not the actual combat).

Does NM impact DAM -> DESTROYED from a retreat?

No, but I think morale/experience of the unit in question has an impact.

I think allowing player configuration of NM (on a country basis) a nice idea.

But not sure how it will ultimately impact grinding, other than maybe making the original retreat less likely?

From the previous example, I am going to assume the German division had fairly good exp/morale values originally.

Just eyeballing the numbers....

1st combat: 384 elements damaged. (some of those must have transitioned to "repaired" or "destroyed" before 2nd combat)
2nd combat: RETREAT Result destroys 341 elements alone.

---

If that happened to the Romanians, that unit would probably be shattered in the 2nd combat. Axis Allies dont stay around long enough to be "grinded".

I don't think the 3k lost in the second ss is a massacre nor grinding, just a tactic and seems plausible. Seeing 10k or 20k is different.

DarkHorse2 wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:06 pm 1st combat: 384 elements damaged. (some of those must have transitioned to "repaired" or "destroyed" before 2nd combat)

I am 99.999% sure this happens only during logisitcs. Same as the...

For the Axis side, if losses to the rest of the unit result in excess support squads, some may be converted to rifle squad ground elements or returned to the manpower pool during the replacement phase

rule. Just take the initial 1054 Elements and substract the DEStroyed 192 and you get 862 at start of the 2nd battle. No magic transfers to the repair pools. Some of the DEStroyed manpower may escape or get Disabled tho, that's another topic.

If Stamb would had used the Checkbox at the bottom we could see, that of those 25 RTR DES there are 25 of which were DAMaged before during combat.
He started the 1st battle with 4 DAMaged elements already and 383 got DAMaged and one more during RETreat.
The next battle starts with 363 DAMaged elements.
This gives us 383+1-25=358 -> +4=363

I'd argue that the game needs exactly what you guessed/said. A check/mechanic that allows DAMaged elements due to battle/retreat to go to the Transit(repair) Pool directly after combat. This ofc. needs limiting factors depending on Odds, Vehicles, support Squads, enemy Divisions MOTORIZED status and Leader Rolls. So close Odds Battles wouldn't automatically result in 1 Hex retreat to then lose (almost (Guns/AFVs)) everything anyways in the next attack.

DarkHorse2 wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:06 pm 2nd combat: RETREAT Result destroys 341 elements alone.

Again, with the Checkbox we could see, that of those 341, 128 were DAMaged before during combat.
As shown here the before the combat DAMaged elements are not in brackets. Similar to the losses shown there for Tanks it looks like for pre-battle DAMaged Guns, as seen in Stambs example battle. In this he started with 42 DAMaged Guns, and total lost 72 Guns. So about half of his 72 total Gun losses may have been Guns which were Damages during/after the previous battle.
There's already the Retreat 1 Hex or 2Hex+ mechanics in the game, so retreating 1 Hex is the best Retreat you can get, so this imo is supposed to represent an organized retreat, this must mean something other than just reteating one Hex to get blown up after that (in sometimes another 1 Hex retreat).

The numbers don't line correctly is why I was thinking some of the damaged elements were repaired / destroyed between combats.

1st Combat: 384 elements DAMAGED

But 2nd Combat only lists 363 elements DAMAGED at start.

What happened to the other 20? (Idk) Something happened... whatever it was, the numbers don't quite line up...

DarkHorse2 wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:06 pm I think allowing player configuration of NM (on a country basis) a nice idea.

But not sure how it will ultimately impact grinding, other than maybe making the original retreat less likely?

The Stalingrad to Berlin game Stamb's screenshot is from is unmodded.

However, Stamb and I were also playing a modded Stalingrad to Berlin game where we raised Soviet and Axis morale/experience/national morale both +10 and also raised Axis Ally morale/experience/national morale by +15. It seems to make a pretty big difference for follow-up attacks in particular, and it definitely does help make units more durable.

Here are some examples where I (Axis) did some attacks with a follow-up attack in the modded game.

Attack 1:



Attack 1 follow up:



Nearly 6k Soviet losses on the follow up, so it still does significant damage, but at least it is only 1/3 losses rather than 100% losses.


Attack 2:



Attack 2 follow up:



Less than 2k losses on the follow up attack in that case, the losses were barely higher than in the initial attack.



So it can vary, but I think raising the morale (especially above the 50/51 threshold) makes a big difference in reducing the extremely high 100% losses type battles.

I would really like to understand what is going on, but you didn't capture any of the "detailed" combat results.

DarkHorse2 wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:25 pm The numbers don't line correctly is why I was thinking some of the damaged elements were repaired / destroyed between combats.

1st Combat: 384 elements DAMAGED

But 2nd Combat only lists 363 elements DAMAGED at start.

What happened to the other 20? (Idk) Something happened... whatever it was, the numbers don't quite line up...

Wiedrock wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:55 pm If Stamb would had used the Checkbox at the bottom we could see, that of those 25 RTR DES there are 25 of which were DAMaged before during combat.
He started the 1st battle with 4 DAMaged elements already and 383 got DAMaged and one more during RETreat.
The next battle starts with 363 DAMaged elements.
This gives us 383+1-25=358 -> +4=363